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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Hi Sam,

You wrote: " Also, the connection between spiritual death and the possession of the Spirit that you made here is not apparent in the text. It seems to be more of an inference based on a particular presupposition."

You are correct in that it is an inference based on a particular presupposition. In the thread, we are writing about types that existed in the OT that are revealed more clearly in the NT. In other words, what existed in the OT exists in the NT. Now some may not agree with this statement. We know as you said that the Holy Spirit was taken away from those who were disobedient and or unbelieving. They could not enter God's rest because of unbelief. In Hebrews, it says that God's rest still remains for those who do believe. So again we come to the law of faith. The God of the OT is the same in the NT.

"When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Again, when I say to the wicked, "You shall surely die,' if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and [b]walks[/b] in the statutes of [b]life[/b] without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die." Ezekiel 33:13-15 Now in this Scripture I believe life and death speak to the eternal inheritance and not the life or death of one's body. When I see the word [b]walk[/b], I believe this is a type described in the NT as faith.

In this Scripture, we find the righteous and the wicked. It is God who declares to the righteous, "He shall surely live." It is God who declares that if this man walks not with God, God will declare, "He shall die."

So you are correct. I have made inferences based on my understand of Scripture. When God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham concluded that God would work things out. I believe that it is necessary for us to follow the Holy Spirit in us. I also believe that if we find ourselves denying Jesus who directs the Holy Spirit in our lives, Jesus will deny us. I believe this is the unpardonable sin. We crucify Christ a second time. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One. If we deny God we lose the Counselor. "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him, [b]If we deny Him, He will deny us."[/b] 2 Timothy 2:12 The OT is the evidence of what is revealed in the NT.

You wrote: "The Spirit is a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come, which [b]implies[/b] that the Spirit is a deposit until the Lord's coming."

You see based on your presupposition, you also must resort to inference.

I do believe that one who continues to walk, stumbling along the way, will be convinced as Paul was, "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to seperate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/2/13 7:14Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Jeff:

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Quote:
You wrote: "The Spirit is a deposit, guaranteeing [i]what is to come,[/i] which implies that the Spirit is a deposit until the Lord's coming."

You see based on your presupposition, you also must resort to inference.

What I wrote above was in point (1) of my previous post [2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5]. In this case, I think my inference is strong because the same point was made explicit in point (2) [Eph. 1:13-14]. The connection is strong because they use the same idea (and same words) of [i]deposit, guarantee, and seal[/i] in reference to the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the NT.

This could be my bias. But I'm curious, when you read Eph. 1:13-14, how did you interpret it? I am willing to correct my understanding if I find a better exposition!

To repeat my own understanding, which I thought seems straightforward from the text:

Ephesians 1:13-14. First, [i]"Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit," (v. 13)[/i] indicates that we receive the Spirit as a result of accepting the truth of the gospel.

Second, the Spirit is [i]"a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory." (v. 14)[/i] Therefore, those who have believed shall one day be fully redeemed as God's possession and enjoy his heavenly inheritance.

As far as I could see, the first verse talks about the condition for being marked in Christ with the Spirit as the seal. The condition seems to be clear: [i]"having believed"[/i]. The second verse talks about the purpose of having the Spirit as the seal. To me, the purpose is quite clearly mentioned: to guarantee our spiritual inheritance until the time of full redemption.

If the above is true, it is hard to conceive of God as someone who would forfeit a deposit (i.e. deny us the Holy Spirit) and give up what he promised to fulfill in the future.


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Sam

 2004/2/17 8:54Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Hi Sam

In both 2 Corinthians 1:22, and Ephesians 1:14, the word guarantee is used to affirm our standing in the Lord. The Holy Spirit is given as a promise, a down payment, until the redemption that is Christ. The Hebrew word is arrhabon, is a pledge, a down payment given in advance for the full purchase. I believe that those who continue to obey the Holy Spirit will inherit Eternal Life. I believe it is not only the Spirit that one inherits, but through faith in following the Spirit, Christ also is formed within us. This is the work of the Spirit. Christ in us. Paul also cautions the Corinthians,

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple are you." 1 Corinthians 3:16-17

"Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, [b]by which you are also saved, if you hold fast ...unless you believed in vain."[/b] 1 Corinthians 15:1

"Not that we have dominion over your faith, but are fellow workers for your joy, [b]for by faith you stand."[/b] 2 Corinthians 1:24

"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. [b]Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?[/b]--unless indeed you are disqualified, but I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified." 2 Corinthians 13: 5. (disqualified, another way of saying, "you do not stand the test)

The Holy Spirit is the down payment for the redemption. If we follow the Holy Spirit, Jesus is revealed in us. Paul clearly warns the Corinthians, You are babes in Christ, I cannot speak to you as spiritual people but as to carnal... 1 Corinthians 3:1.

Again this thread is about types. The OT supports the NT in the way the Holy Spirit has always worked. Christ is the light of life that is given to every man coming into the world. We who stand in faith are predestined to be conformed into the image of the Son of God.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/2/17 10:14Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Hi Jeff:

I think we have gone as far as we could at the moment. I hope you have recognised that in many ways, especially in the practical aspects, I am in much agreement with you. God's purpose is for us to live a life in the Spirit today so that we might be conformed into Christ's image. If I have sounded critical at times, it is just the nature of having a forum called "Scriptural Debates" (as opposed to "Scriptural Fellowship").

To sum up our thread on [b]types,[/b] typology is an interpretive method that is particularly interested in relating the OT to the NT and vice versa. Typology does have its dangers. There is a temptation to read too much [i]into[/i] the text and come up with ideas totally foreign to the authors of scripture. We must also avoid being too dogmatic about the meaning of the types if they are not explicitly spelled out in scripture.

As for my disagreement with you in the previous posts, the issue has little to do with typology. We both acknowledge that the triune God is at work throughout human history, both in the OT and in the NT. But in terms of the ministry of the Spirit, we differed at certain points.

I certainly acknowledge the [i]continuity[/i] of the work of the Spirit in the OT and in the NT. However, based on the unique NT teaching of the Spirit's indwelling (the Spirit [i]in[/i] the believer, not just [i]on[/i] the believer), I see a progress in the ministry of Spirit. The Spirit indwells the NT believers as a deposit [i]unconditionally[/i], guaranteeing God’s promise until their full redemption.

I think you see not just a [i]continuity,[/i] but an [i]identity[/i] in the work of the Spirit in the testaments. Therefore, not only is the Spirit the same in the both testaments (which I agree), but you insist that the way he works is [i]exactly[/i] the same (which I disagree). As a result, you see the sealing of the Spirit as [i]conditional[/i] upon the believer's obedience (which I fail to see in the direct reference), inferring from the OT that the Spirit could depart from NT believers (which I cannot fully embrace on the mere basis of few OT references). Part of the reason why you insist on attaching a condition to the Spirit's indwelling is your conviction in rejecting the doctrine of "eternal security" (hence your citations from 1 Cor. 3:1,16-17; 15:1; 2 Cor. 1:24, 13:5 -- all of which, in my opinion, has nothing to do with losing eternal life -- but that deserves another thread).

I hope that accurately summarises our discussion. :)


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Sam

 2004/2/18 5:50Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Hi Sam,
I believe you have summarized correctly. In my case, I believe that we are saved by grace through faith. I believe that faith is a result of God speaking to you and asking you to do things for Him. In the OT, God asked Abram to go to a new country. God promised He would bless those who blessed him and curse those who cursed him. We see that Abram obeyed, and then stumbled a couple of times. Each time God confirmed His promise to Abram, Abram began to understand that God does keep His promises. So in trust, Abram began to walk more closely with God. Then we see that God makes a covenant with Abram who is now Abraham. I believe this OT example of God's grace working together with Abraham obeying His commands makes for the relationship between God and man. God is everything, man has the choice to obey or not. There is a period of calling in Abram's life. Then there is the covenant. I believe this is pointed out when Jesus says, Those who the Father gives Me I will by no mean lose.

This is where we may differ. One may say that we are saved by grace alone. Therefore faith is of no consequence because it is God who develops our faith.

In the OT, obedience is required. In the NT, a disciple of Jesus must obey. Paul always writes about the choices we make.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/2/19 6:23Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
This is where we may differ. One may say that we are saved by grace alone. Therefore faith is of no consequence because it is God who develops our faith.

No, this is not where we differ, we are in agreement here. [i]"For it is [b]by grace[/b] you have been saved, [b]through faith[/b]--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2:8-10)[/i]
Quote:
In the OT, obedience is required. In the NT, a disciple of Jesus must obey. Paul always writes about the choices we make.

I agree with this statement too. A living faith should produce obedience and good works. We are created in Christ to do so.

001


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Sam

 2004/2/19 9:14Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

I am sorry Sam

God bless
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/2/19 11:01Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Jeff,

No need to apologise. I have quite enjoyed the discussion myself. :)

001


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Sam

 2004/2/20 4:49Profile





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