I decided to start a new thread with two posts which are dealing with another subject on the tongues thread, that is, the spiritual life and suffering ,and I hope that this is acceptable as it seemed to me to be more useful to separate them..
by twayneb on 2010/5/15 11:19:43
Suffering with Christ is not at all the same thing as Christ making us suffer. Christ in the wilderness was tempted, not of God, but of the enemy. He overcame through the power of the Holy Spirit and through the power of the word of God which He used as the sword of the Spirit to defeat the enemy. It was not a dark night of the soul in which God withdrew His presence, rather Jesus was led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit within Him and overcame through that presence within Him.
You are right, Paul spend several years out of the public and historical eye and we do not know what happened to him other than when he stepped on the scene and began to minister it was with the power and authority of the Holy Spirit within him.
Being baptized into His death and suffering with Him are not synonymous with God withdrawing His presence or with God somehow putting us through a time of not sensing His movings or His Holy Spirit. It is not synonymous with "dry times". Persecution will come, but does not come at God's behest. Persecution comes from the enemy to try to get us to back down from the word of God (Matt. 13), and to try to get us to be offended in Christ and give up. It is meant to destroy us and comes from the one who hates the fact that we walk full of the power of the Holy Spirit.
Job did not have the abiding and indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. He lived and operated under the old covenant. When Christ ascended and sent the comforter, everything changed. Now we can become the manifested sons of God in this earth walking in the power of His Holy Spirit, doing the works that He did. It is the whole purpose of the comforter that as He is, so should we be in this present world. No matter the persecution or attack of the enemy, 1/3 of us (our spirit) is wall to wall Holy Ghost and we can walk in the joy of the Lord and experience His power and presence every single day because God's Holy Spirit dwells IN US.
I am not trying to say that we will not have problems. We are bucking the trend, fighting a real enemy, and as a result we WILL have persecution and spiritual battles. Our cars will probably break down just like our unsaved neighbors'. We live in a natural and fallen world. I am saying that in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him. If I am martyred for my faith, I will do so full of the power of the Holy Spirit and joy. Not that I am anything, but I know whose I am and He has filled me with His Spirit.
I guess I am just trying to tell you that the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit changes everything. It brings us to a place where we walk in His power, not our own.
God bless you today Brenda
"Job did not have the abiding and indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. He lived and operated under the old covenant."
The new covenant has been in place since the begining as the old is still operational today for those who walk after the flesh.
Abraham believed and it was counted for him as righteousness along with other men of God in the OT including Job who were said to be holy men and not Jews in name only having the circumcision of the flesh and not the circumcision of the heart. What Christ achieved on the cross counts for all time though the Spirit had not been poured out in old days, upon all men - only the few who had not bowed the knee to Baal.
There is a vast history of men called mystics who have devoted themselves to Christ and have turned from the world and self serving, who have written of their experiences of the sufferings involved in `climbing the mountain of God` and one in particular St John of the Cross, who writes eloquently and as exact as any science on the trials of the pathway to perfection, and who describes the dark nights on this journey and the worst part of it is the seeming abandonemnt by God but this is a necessary part of learning to walk by faith alone. It is only in the baby stages of faith that we have the presence of God with us and we must learn to let Him come and go without losing any trust in Him until we have reached full stature.
Die KraftFrau schreibt:
You are absolutley right on some of it but not in the conclusions you come to. You have added those yourself.
Look at the text again.
The conclusions were drawn before the Lord spoke to me...it was from the head and not the heart at first.
A response to this was written this morning, and i don't know how, but it dissappeared from the thread. So, the following is encapsulation:
The end note was, i still dare you.
1) If we are dealing in our own reasonings, there is no telling what we come up with. (Seek and cry out loud while He may be found and He is near. Isaiah 55:7 might be said clearer be said as "Let the one-who-acts-in-twisted-ways-against God's ways leave these things behind, and let the one-one who-walks-because-of-vain-imagined-rationalizations turn his back on what he thinks." Doing the outloud reading, flooding consciousness throuhg the eye and ear gates, there comes an experience akin to being born again again but better (at least for me, and those i have been told to tell this advice).
2) Many think the initial Holy Spirit Baptism is the end of the road. (i.e., "i've been there done that, so there is no way to draw closer to God except through prayer and works...but even thinking this is making the very first infilling/outpouring experience into a work of your own doing...and so your own flesh enters the picture to bind you via petty laws. To date, i can account for 8 infilling outpouring experiences, each more encompassing thaan the former. This is what being filled with the Spirit is all about.
Reading just the first few chapters of Acts as a continous whole, you can see that this happened with some of the first recipients, setting biblical precedent.
Are you fully relying on Him, or are you trying to make the sanctification experience work through your own efforts?
Some try to understand so they can believe something, but that's not what it says: Rom. 10:17
We know that faith bears action in and of His faith(fulness) to do as He promises.
Why don't you do something i have learned to do, with mistakes...but as this process continues towards maturity, the mistakes become far fewer.
Try believing and so doing because you will gain His wisdom, understand towards His ways, and know better what to do as you continue to follow???
One thing that will surely lock shut the windows of heaven is the spirit of unforgiveness. I have learned this the hard way. When rejected or despised, i used to try to cut-and-paste my walk in the Lord, cutting out what i did not like and adding what i thought was to be my blessing. What a tangled web i wove, and holding on to bad feelings about others shut heavens windows. i finally sought forgiveness from those who offended me recognizing i was the problem. I must have offended them in some way for problems to arise. [If i was not there (whatever the time or place) doing as i did, it would not have happened to me (the way it unfolded,) so God has good pleasure and purpose in this...
...and the only right i have -if i am to consistently walk in His Spirit- is to die.]
i now praise and thank God for even the bad things that come along whatever the source so our Father can show Himself strong in the earth. He is just chiseling out the rough spots, conforming me more and more into finer definition towards the image of Jesus Christ.
Now there is thanksgiving over every trial, temptation, and test. The source of adversity is the adversary, but God allows it so that we can walk in greater victories.
Other people or things are not the problem. In our flesh we may see it this way.
Love bless and give to those who attempt to reject you, then see God work beyond all expectations. You will thank and praise Him that much more, knowing that He has written your name in heaven... and the windows stay open.
p.s. Sorry about the wrong conclusions, but the challenge remains.
p.s.s. Prayers to your benefit continue since the first post was read.
I am very grateful for your imput here.
"Many think the initial Holy Spirit Baptism is the end of the road. (i.e., "i've been there done that, so there is no way to draw closer to God except through prayer and works...but even thinking this is making the very first infilling/outpouring experience into a work of your own doing...and so your own flesh enters the picture to bind you via petty laws."
Yes I agree entirely with this, indeed it is just the begining and is never a done thing in the past but a present abiding by faith, not trusting in our own rightousness or anything else for that matter but Christ alone. Good word.
"Are you fully relying on Him, or are you trying to make the sanctification experience work through your own efforts?"
I know it is all through faith and that within me there is no good thing - but I am thinking about whether you may be right. It is one thing to know something and quite another to practice it.
"One thing that will surely lock shut the windows of heaven is the spirit of unforgiveness."
Again I am not aware that I am not forgiving but I see that I must really address this issue and see that I am forgiving fully and what God requires me to do if not. This will be a matter of deep prayer for me. How do you know if you are forgiving fully?
I take up your challenge.