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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does anyone know of a solid biblical response to MacArthur's sermons on tongues and spiritual gifts?

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Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

In response to the OP, Piper has a pretty fair interpretation of the gifts still being for today, and he is coming from a Baptist perspective...not usually supportive of such things.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/BySeries/36/


_________________
Paul

 2010/5/13 20:55Profile
hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
What do you get when you take the gifts of the Spirit away from the church? A church with priests called pastors, privileged to preach down from the pulpit to the pews, pressing their programmes, pharisees proselyting poor people, preventing the presence of God



That's the thought I had after listening to J.Vernon McGee's sermons on the same. He might as well read the text in Latin for all the sense it made after hearing his sermon. The Word says that we need no one to teach but that God's anointing will lead us. If what Dr. McGee said is true there would be no way for me to ever come to the same conclusions simply by reading the words on the page. That would leave me at the mercy of the educated class of priests. It seems to me that the bible is written very plainly so that people can understand. I find it hard to believe that the Spirit would inspire Paul to write the opposite of what He really meant.


_________________
Matt Smith

 2010/5/13 21:10Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
That's the thought I had after listening to J.Vernon McGee's sermons on the same. He might as well read the text in Latin for all the sense it made after hearing his sermon. The Word says that we need no one to teach but that God's anointing will lead us. If what Dr. McGee said is true there would be no way for me to ever come to the same conclusions simply by reading the words on the page. That would leave me at the mercy of the educated class of priests. It seems to me that the bible is written very plainly so that people can understand. I find it hard to believe that the Spirit would inspire Paul to write the opposite of what He really meant.



That is why is it wonderful to live in the 21st century. Exegetes and scholars are no longer at the advantage they once were due to powerful Bible programs such as Accordance software, Blue Letter Bible, etc.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/5/13 21:33Profile









 Re:

Those who do not know that tongues gives us an extra boost, and deny that such is the case, look at that verse that say's '...he who speaks in tongues edifieth himself...' , think also that it is selfish to experience what God freely gives for the asking... and so to them it's considered bad.

What about regeneration in salvation then???
Is that bad because it changes you for the better, but nobody else can experience what you do?



After the initial baptism, my dad (prolly overhearing me), handed me a book by Spiros Zodiates(sp?) stating how tongues were so wrong.

He was a day late and a creflo short compared to what i knew already.

As i have grown in the Lord, though other gifts continue to manifest more frequenty, tongues also are spoken in, prayed with, and used in worship more frequently as well.

God is not going to force anybody into recieving His gifts, salvation included.

If you do not believe, it will never happen for you. That's the plain and simple fact.




So this leads to a question that's been bugging me for some time:

The most liberal says that the Bible is myth, metaphor, and allegory. The most fundamental says that all the Bibles true but it doesn't happen that way anymore.
What's the difference?
Neither really believe God as He who does not change says it is... right???

CIAO?
g
Acts 20:32

 2010/5/13 22:02
intrcssr83
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re:

As one who actually hold to a continuationist pneumatology in addition to a calvinistic soteriology, I read his book "Charismatic Chaos" with an open mind with the actual expectation of disagreeing with the content.

First of all, Macarthur does make the mistake of clumping pentacostals, Evangelical-Charismatics and the Word of Faith movement under the one umbrella as though the errors of the latter are indicative of the whole.
Secondly,in the examples he gives of excess and abuse of the spiritual gifts, he will often go to the extreme cases and use them to present what is nothing more than a strawman attack.

If there was anything positive that i gained from the book, i would say that it is a greater appreciation and understanding of the cessationist position, and yes, i will concede that while there are huge areas of disagreement that i may have with John Macarthur, I can at least say that I understand the reasoning to the point that can see why and even at times sympathize.

In response to the OP, Jack Deere's [i]Surprised by the Spirit[/i] has a whole chapter dedicated to refuting Macarthur's arguments.
Sam Storms (a Charismatic-Reformed-Baptist) also has a lot of good stuff on his website [url=http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/studies/controversial-issues/]Enjoying God Ministries[/url]


_________________
Benjamin Valentine

 2010/5/13 22:17Profile









 Re:

I like Franks response in that he was a "virgin" so to speak when he came into all this not knowing what men thought of beforehand.

While the thread master is looking for an answer on what MacArthur thinks, I'd like to know what everyone thinks of what brother Frank had received when He spoke in tongues? Or anyone who has received the Holy Spirit in like manner.

There are many people that frequent this site that think that those that speak in tongues are either crazy, misguided, or received another spirit.

And if crazy, misguided, or received another spirit, why fellowship with them, knowing full well they are in error?

How do we deal with other great revivals that we look upon as authentic? For example, Frank Bartleman's Azusa Street revival had plenty of tongue talkers. I read someplace that this was never heard of since the day of Pentecost.

We have a Baptist plumber by the name of Smith Wigglesworth that did not believe in this outpouring let alone tongues, and yet the very thing that he refused to believe could happen, happened to him. Was he a crazy man? Was he misguided? or did he receive a spirit that is not of God?

There are millions of people that don't believe this and yet, they have an opinion in their mind that this is not of God.

I haven't heard anyone ever come out and say it's not of God, but they say it in a subtle way as to not offend, "I don't believe in speaking in tongues".

What is really being said is, "Since I don't believe in speaking in tongues, I also don't believe that your from God".

It would be nice to have people come right out and speak their mind instead of dancing around the issue. We are only offending ourselves by not being true to our fellow man and God.




 2010/5/13 22:28
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

I don't quite understand tongues in the context of the continuing gifts dialogue. Not having seen the demonstration of the gift, my question is does the manifestation of this gift actually occur where a known language is spoken as in the original Acts manifestation or are we speaking of a secret language or both? Sorry, I just haven't seen it happen before so I'm at the least uninformed. Anticipating the answer, why has the known foreign language gift apparently ceased given some of the analysis of 1 corinthians 7?

 2010/5/14 8:38Profile









 Re:

I will answer your questions snufalapagus

"And if crazy, misguided, or received another spirit, why fellowship with them, knowing full well they are in error?"

I do not withdraw fellowhip with those I deem deceived and am sure that I am decieived somewhere along the line since I am not walking fully in the light.

"How do we deal with other great revivals that we look upon as authentic?"

I do not class them as authentic and see Asusa St. as the begining of the rot setting in. The true revivals have holiness as their focus not gifts.

"We have a Baptist plumber by the name of Smith Wigglesworth that did not believe in this outpouring let alone tongues, and yet the very thing that he refused to believe could happen, happened to him. Was he a crazy man? Was he misguided? or did he receive a spirit that is not of God?"

I did not believe it either but started to physically manifest at a charismatic meeting till I stoppped it in the name of Jesus. Not many if any are discerning the spirits and that is the problem. They think that Satan is barred from a meeting but he appeared in Job in heaven.

I think it may be satanic in some cases or just psychological in others. It is not from the Spirit as God is always giving us light whereas this is in the realm of darkness. There is no way I would allow any words to come out of my mouth unless I knew what they meant as I am sure that satan can use this means to utter curses in ourselves.

 2010/5/14 10:01









 Re:

Quote:
I do not class them as authentic and see Asusa St. as the beginning of the rot setting in. The true revivals have holiness as their focus not gifts.



WOW!!

Thanks for speaking your mind! :-)

Holiness was the main issue at Azusa Street though.

The gifts of the Spirit automatically manifest themselves when God is near for God is love. Love is not a stationary virtue, it expresses itself. When God is near things happen. However, if one does not believe that God does certain things through individuals and the whole mass of people believe that, than He is hindered. Faith still is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. And if one doesn't expect or hope for God to move in the miraculous, than He will not or do very little. That is why it says that Jesus could not do many miracles in certain towns because of unbelief.

 2010/5/14 10:12









 Re:

Manifestations appeared after the first few weeks of all revivals. Jesse Penn-Lewis wrote a book about it and the manifestations at the Welsh revivals. Tongues are never taught or practised by these leaders of revival although it is true, they often appear at the edges until Asusa St where they seemed to be accepted by the masses and it became the test of BoTHS.

I absolutely agree with you on the miraculous and am not a cessationsist but tongues will cease it says but the other gifts continued. Of course we must have faith but I have tested these manifestations you find at charismatic meetings and they were not of God. God dealas with us via our spirit and if there are physical manifestations then we are to be very wary.

 2010/5/14 10:35





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