Santa Clara, CA
Not in the least Jeremy, think everyone is trying to be helpful and my intent with shortening Solomon's words was in the sense of sometimes counsel is not enough, what is also needed is love and understanding, compassion and prayer.
However or whatever the cause behind this anger, I hear a cry and just as surely we all can relate to times of battle within, whatever form they may be. So it wasn't an indictment on anyone.
To our dear sister, imagine the brethren offering up prayers for you, round about you, petitioning the Lord for peace to flood your spirit.
[i]2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.[/i]
| 2004/10/19 8:27||Profile|
And yes, I believe there are demons of anger and rage. And yes, I believe that Christians have authority over them to cast them out by the power of God.
I don't doubt that anger can also be a sinful fruit of the flesh. But it could also be demonic.
I would add my caution to 'inthelight' here. The danger is that the demonic is beyong our control and hence we are not accountable. rage is a sin and needs to be confessed and forsaken. If God gives the discernment He always provides the deliverance, but sometimes the problem is 'me' and nobody else is to blame.
I wonder if you have any biblical reasons for referring to demons of 'anger'?
| 2004/10/19 13:27||Profile|
First of all, I do agree with the caution in a sense. You can't know for sure that it's demonic unless it's revealed to you. So unless it is clearly revealed, you can't know for sure whether it's the flesh or demonic (or perhaps a mixture of both). So you can't just act like, "well I can't help it and it's not my problem" and not confess it as sin. However, it just as well might be demonic.
"The danger is that the demonic is beyong our control and hence we are not accountable."
In a sense I think I get what you're saying, though I question the first part of your statement. It seems clear that the demonic is not beyond our control as Christians. At least not totally beyond. If we have authority over demons, I don't see how it could be said that they are completley beyond our control.
In that Scripture I shared in Acts, Paul got annoyed with the demonic spirit and commanded it (yes, Paul spoke to the demon) to come out of the girl. Who appears to be in control of that situation?
Unfortunately, due to the variety of factors involved (little faith, lack of fasting and prayer, etc.), we don't always see enough authority exercised over the demonic and we can't always pin down the reason why... and many remain "oppressed of the devil".
"rage is a sin and needs to be confessed and forsaken."
Yes, agreed. But it may also be demonically influenced.
"If God gives the discernment He always provides the deliverance"
I've never heard that before, and as of now I'm not convinced this is always true. What is your support for that statement?
"but sometimes the problem is 'me' and nobody else is to blame."
"I wonder if you have any biblical reasons for referring to demons of 'anger'?"
One biblical reason was out of love for Carly. She seemed to be getting only part of the truth on this issue (the harsh part) and I wanted to offer another perspective for her to consider.
Certainly I don't see any biblical reason [i]not[/i] to speak of demons of anger and rage.
Even if the Bible didn't mention them at all, that wouldn't rule them out. But just for those who would like some Scripture do a little study on 1 Samuel 18:10-11. There is an "evil spirit" upon Saul that caused him to "rave" and throw spears at David. One of the meanings given for the word "evil" (Ra, #7451) in the Hebrew is "hideous, fierce, wild". The Hebrew word "rave" in Zodhaites is furthered defined as "to rave, to play the madman, to act as if one is insane." The fruit of this evil spirit that made Saul "rave", and which makes it even more specifically "rage-like", is Saul throwing the spears at David as he said in his mind "I will pin David to the wall."
This example, plus contemplating on the Gerasene demoniac (why would he need to be bound in chains and shakels and kept under guard?), seems to make it quite feasible, if not probible, that there are evil spirits that could basically be classified as demons of anger or rage. Add to that the testimonies of of many men of God who operate in the ministry of deliverance, who have dealt with evil spirits who act like this, and the support is bolstered even more.
| 2004/10/19 21:55||Profile|
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
| Re: Where I am coming from|
Perhaps what might be helpful is if we all can pray for our sister.
[i]'A gentle answer turns away wrath'[/i]
Sorry if I am a bit slow on the rebound, but time has been rather precious.
I think that 1)It is very hard to speak the truth in love in this medium and 2) this may simply be a deception issue, for this person.
I will illustrate with a story. I will use the usual suspects of the chicken and the eagle. There is a whole lot of Eagles born and by some terrible act of fate they are kidnapped by a nasty person, who keeps them locked up in cages and continually tells them that they are chickens. After a while they grow up to look like eagles but act in manner and thought like your common farm chicken. Eventually eagle one rescue squandron comes to save these poor creatures and gives them the freedom to fly free from their bondage. Hoorah!!
So flapping and running they escape to persue there life of freedom.:-D Sad to say but they don't make it far before they are lost in the woods not knowing what to do or where to go, with eagle one rescue squadron far off in the distance, presuming that these freed eagles would fly with them. After wondering around for a while they find that there are other eagles also roaming around the woods helplessly flapping to and fro not being able to get anywhere either, so there they sit/flap.
One ambitious rookie comes to a old veteran who has just about been around every tree and tried every conceivable trick to get away from there. The rookie comes to the veteran with a serious problem and the problem is that he just can't seem to keep himself from digging his face in the dirt to look for vile tasting grubs. With a look of great wisdom he tells the young escapee that it is because he has a spirit of a chicken and must cast it out of himself. So this rookie goes off convinced that this is the root of the problem, the chicken spirit is having his way with him.
So to conclude this story' for the rest of his days he tries frantically to get rid of this 'chicken spirit' not realising that as a eagle the 'chicken spirit' has as much right to him as death had to holding Jesus in he grave. And those things he had learned in the chicken run, were meant for chickens not eagles.
As much as it is good and proper to empathies and encourage the varied friends that visit this site lets set forth the truth and work back from there.
This scripture came to mind:
...[b]we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God.[/b] On the contrary, [b]by setting forth the truth plainly[/b] we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God... 6For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"A made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. Cor 4:1,2,6
My concern is that we let our experience determine our theology and not our theology determine our experience on who we are now in Christ Jesus.
How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! 1 John 3:1 NIV
p.s. I have no claims or desires to be/become an author of books. :-P
| 2004/10/23 15:09||Profile|
| Re: self-deliverance|
As I have read through this thread, it seems that there are several matters in question. Carly's question was, can we cast demons out of ourselves? The particular demon she is referring to is what she calls a spirit of anger. The discussion then turns to whether or not anger is a problem of the flesh or if it is a demon. I feel somewhat like a Mary Magdelene, myself. I believe I've been delivered from numerous demons and most certainly I have found victory over my flesh in the area of anger. Here's what I believe I have learned through my own personal experience. Sin is germinated in the self-life. Anger is the biggest red flag I have in me to notify me that I am walking in the self(flesh). Ungodly anger is always, always, always caused by my self-preservation. I become angry because something or someone is threatening something of mine. Godly anger is rare and it doesn't normally manifest in the form of rage. It manifests in action to correct the wrong. I believe many, many people have demons oppressing them, but that is no excuse for a Christian. Jesus has all things under his feet. All things. All anger should be repented of, whether demonic or not. A demon cannot continue to weild it's power over us when we walk in agreement with God. In answer to Carly's question, can we cast demons out of ourselves? Absolutely. You remove their hook (you die to self).
| 2004/10/23 18:48||Profile|
| Re: I concur...|
For whatever it's worth (which isn't quite a lot to be honest), I agree with Dian. Oftentimes I have used external things to avoid repentance (i.e. the Devil made me do it). In other words, it's not really my fault I've sinned it's his (satan's).
It's very similar to Genesis 3. Our flesh has to die there's no other way.
I'm speaking of my heart with a lot of personal experience but I'm not advocating that this is necessarily true in your case. I would suggest honestly seeking the Lord in your prayer closet and he will reveal your heart. If we truly seek God with all our heart, he will never confuse or toy with us.
Press into Jesus and lay it all out. I'm doing that with some things in my own life and it's going to be unpleasant. Why unpleasant? Because once we see sin in our own hearts for what it really is, there's nothing more heartbreaking than our rebellion before God. I told of my dear friends this evening, is that I'm praying that the Lord will break me and keep me broken. That's my hope for you as well.
| 2004/10/23 22:48||Profile|
Zeke's illustrations was a good one with the chickens/eagle story.Much of what we need is a renewing of the mind .But how thats done?2Cor 3:18 says we'er changed from glory to glory as we see Jesus.There's a basic principle here---we become what we behold ,but as zeke stated thats not enough---we also need the truth of God's word---Ye' shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.As long as a person thinks they have little demons running around inside thier bodies,they will generally excuse besetting sins in thier lives and have a substandard christian walk or experience. I do believe we can give place to the devil and become vexed ----much like Ole' King Saul in the OT.But I believe true repentance and brokeness before God immediately hides us again in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Can a christian have a demon ?I don't believe so.
| 2004/10/24 7:01||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
Here's what I believe I have learned through my own personal experience. Sin is germinated in the self-life. Anger is the biggest red flag I have in me to notify me that I am walking in the self(flesh). Ungodly anger is always, always, always caused by my self-preservation. I become angry because something or someone is threatening something of mine. Godly anger is rare and it doesn't normally manifest in the form of rage. It manifests in action to correct the wrong.
Very well said Dian.
Learning this ever so slowly. Being that we are often clamoring after the Lords will could it not be to show us just this? That we are still after self-preservation, that the very situations we find ourselves in are designed to bring these items up to the surface and [b]expose[/b] them?
"But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." Job 2:10
"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts."
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery,
fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another."
For whatever it's worth (which isn't quite a lot to be honest),
Nice try brother, recall another post awhile back about this... :-)
I'm doing that with some things in my own life and it's going to be unpleasant. Why unpleasant? Because once we see sin in our own hearts for what it really is, there's nothing more heartbreaking than our rebellion before God. I told of my dear friends this evening, is that I'm praying that the Lord will break me and keep me broken. That's my hope for you as well.
But that's not the end of it all is it? Isn't it [b]unto[/b] something? I know you realize that and by no means am trying to lessen or skirt the issue. It [b]is[/b] or can be unpleasant. Know also that anguish could be just up ahead once again, but to revert back to Galatians; [i]"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, [b]joy, peace[/b], longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.[/i]
Those two become by products of just the smallest acts of obedience or so it seems. After a while it gets weary kicking at the goads and am finding that giving up or 'crying uncle' could be equated with the idea of dying to self. A seemingly silly illustration? Being ever distrustful of what passes through this deranged mind, what 'voices' I am 'hearing', sorry, it's not like Samuel for me [i]'Speak, LORD, for your servant hears.'[/i] Yet there is that 'sense' of the Lords leading.
What we want to do in any given situation and what the Lord would have us do are often on a collision course. Bet you are wondering if I was ever going to get around to the point...Over the last week I have been listening to the Old Testament while working and often want to check out of that and listen to some good messages from the heap of CD's I drag around, the mobile version of SI. But as I reach the end of Joab's sinister plotting and go digging for something on say, prayer. I 'know' that I am to continue on this course through the OT. Right there I have a decision, my flesh wants the latest CD I have burned, all well and good but that prompting is telling me 'stay with it". Isn't it almost always that way? We know it in the smallest of things but often choose to use our rationale and then start pulling out verse's to 'justify' our real denial of where the Lord is leading. Silly it seems over something so insignificant or is it?
What I am finding is that when I do cooperate there is peace and even joy all the while everything else that I could give my attention to and there is a lot of it these days, frustrations, worries, pressure, finances, the global sin problem, the persecuted brethren, the weight of the world...
None of it becomes less important it just gets overshadowed because in that moment I am being obedient to what the Lord is prompting me to do. This has happened over and over again even in just this 'minor' illustration.
Before I stray to far off topic, the anger issue is exactly the same and to bring it full circle with Spitfires excellent words; [b]Ungodly anger is always, always, always caused by my self-preservation.[/b] And to top it off it is absolutely useless to the 'self' or the hearers unless and only if it is directed by the Lord. Have done enough harm in my own self-preserving anger to those I love trying to 'straighten them out' when I was really poking them with the log in my own eye. If we would just bring these things to the Lord the instance they raise their ugly heads and then accept the Lords leading, not only will He get the glory He rightly deserves we end up getting in on the blessings as a by product of our obedience.
Lastly, to our dear sister here. I hope that all of this council posted throughout this thread is taken for what is useful and remember that;
[i]"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."[/i] Rom 8:1-6
May the Lord give you wisdom, that is my prayer for you.
(My, this is rather long...I know you all expect no less so I guess I will save the apologies and you can chalk it up to 'there he goes again' :-) )
| 2004/10/24 10:09||Profile|