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Do you know which sermon Keith Daniel preached on this topic?
| 2010/4/29 10:55||Profile|
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"holiness without Christ is heresy"
This simple comment is so filled with profound implications. It reminds me of Jonathan Edward's sermon "The Way of Holiness".
"Have you ever read the four Gospels, and did you not observe in the life of Christ wonderful instances of humility, love to God, love to religion; wonderful instances of zeal for God's glory, steadfastness in resisting temptations, entire trust and reliance on God, strict adherence to all his commands; astonishing instances of condescension, humility, meekness, lowliness, love to men, love to his enemies, charity and patience?
Why, this is holiness. When we imitate Christ in these things, then are we holy, and not till then."
| 2010/4/29 12:43||Profile|
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Wonderful quote, Compton!
With care in Christ...
| 2010/4/29 12:59||Profile|
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...holiness is the prescence of God...you are holy if you are in Christ...you are holy because Christ is in you...the hope of glory...
Thats right brother, Christ in us is our holiness. We are not called to be hermits or monks and seperate from the world. God calls us to be witnesses to the world and our seperation is inwardly, its a subjective holiness and purity that seperates us from the filthiness of the world. If the cup is not clean inside but only outside, who will want to drink its filthy water. So it is with us, if we are not pure inside our hearts, the outward righteouness (or self-righteouness) will make us followers of pharisees.
Its the cross that divides and seperates us spiritualy from the world. If you know the power of the cross of Jesus, the world has lost its charm and attraction on us. We are in the world but not of it. Is the world crucified to us? I want to ask myself this question first. Its of no worth theologizing and not goin straight to the point and examine our hearts to see if we realy are in the faith and hate the world and love the kindgom of God and his will.
I struggle with my flesh and its evil influences, there is an inner conflict of the flesh and the Spirit in me. How short we fall to present our bodies as a living sacrifice daily, holy and acceptable to God? We are so zealous about knowledge and doctrines, if someone has a question, there will be many one us that will jump to give an answer (i am one of them), but when it comes to the fruit of the Spirit we lack so much humility and the brotherly affection.
I wonder if someone will talk about humility, how many of us will be intrested not only to talk, as they say talk is cheap but to desire and practice it in our lives. Pride is of the flesh and humility of the Spirit, it is the condition to be fulfilled to be exalted in the Kingdom of God and be famous in heavan.
What about forgiveness...how many are intrested on that subject, thats important too, in our relationship with God & men. If we want to be forgiven by God we have to forgive. Its easy to forgive a freind, but very hard to forgive your enemy, especially someone who wants to hurt you.
We want love, peace and joy with God but what about righteuosness of life? Sometimes we think that all we need is faith and we will receive every blessing we desire. Thats true but it should be proceeded for a christian by repentance and brokeness of heart over sin.
Im not sure how many of us want real holiness after realizing, what it takes to die to self and of the ambitions of the world and what it means to bear up the cross and follow Him.
There's is a big difference between being saved and being a disciple of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not earned by our efforts but its a free gift of God received by faith and it has been accomplished at the cross. In other words it is all of grace. But discipleship has an 'If' as a condition. And Jesus made it clear in the gosples, the requirements and conditions of discipleship.
Jesus said to his disciples, go and make disciples of all the nations...He didnot say go and save as many souls as you can among the nations. That's impossible, salvation is the work of God not man, but making disciples is our call, if we are ourselves disciples of the Lord.
| 2010/4/29 13:18||Profile|
Hazelton, BC, Canada
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My simple answer in response to the original question is that I don't think so. This verse comes to my mind:
"Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14
Jesus also tells us that if we love him we will obey him. One of his commands is to be holy as his Father in heaven is holy. He also tells us to seek first his kingdom.
"Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24
| 2010/4/29 13:38||Profile|
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My simple answer in response to the original question is that I don't think so. This verse comes to my mind: "Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14 Jesus also tells us that if we love him we will obey him. One of his commands is to be holy as his Father in heaven is holy. He also tells us to seek first his kingdom.
I very much liked this answer and I agree with you RoseM.
| 2010/4/29 13:52||Profile|
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"Holiness without Christ is heresy." Actually, holiness without Christ is simply self willed effort and is, because of that very fact, an inherently unholy thing. Holiness without Christ was the very thing through which those who prided themselves in keeping the law were trying to approach God. God said it was self-righteousness and filthy rags.
Actually, disobedience is an unholy thing. The outward manifestations of holiness, refraining from certain things of the world, living a physically and mentally pure life, etc. are simply the manifestations of being the righteousness of God in Christ, the fruit of a born again spirit, and not necessarily a thing in itself. I hope that came across the way I intended it. I am not right with God because of holiness, I think all would agree with that. But what level of holiness is indicative of being born again? How would we use a standard of holiness as an indicator of salvation? It is absolutely true that a born again man will manifest more and more as he grows a Christ-likeness as a result of what has happened in his spirit. But this outward transformation comes as this person's mind is renewed by the Word of God. It is possible to stay a spiritual babe for quite some time. I think we have all seen that, especially when there is a lack of solid teaching of the word.
As to the original question, have any of you ever disobeyed God in an area of your life since you have been born again? That disobedience is by definition an unholy thing. I believe it is possible for a person to be born again and not manifest the outward indicators of holiness that we all could probably identify. But this is a dangerous place for such a person to live. This is why we need to disciple.
| 2010/4/29 17:56||Profile|
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I was asking this question because of a woman who professes to be a christian but shows no fruit in her life what so ever. She does not like to read the Bible, she hates being around other Christians most of the time(her words) she does not want to be bothered with extending herself to others, she holds on to anger(for soon to be ex husband). She does not believe that anything is required of her in her relationship with Christ. He died for her, she accepted that and she is saved(her explanation of what she believes being saved means) She does not see a need to die to self, repent of sin(she said she already did it that one time) or to live a holy life.
She really believes she is saved and I am praying about how to share with her because honestly her life bares no fruit...
| 2010/4/29 18:11||Profile|
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by wind_blows on 2010/4/29 6:22:44
I do walk daily with this person, they profess to be saved but have no desire for the things of His Kingdom and they do not see a need to live a holy life. I am not judging this person, I am asking a question based on their fruit if they are saved because there is a very real chance that they are deceiving themselves. I happen to believe we are to walk with our brothers and sisters and encourage them in the Lord. If one still has the same relationship with sin that they did before they came to Christ I think that is very telling and should be addressed in love, in Christ Jesus.
If they claim to be a Christian and do not have any different relationship with sin, explain the difference (through the scriptures) of the one who is being saved and the one who is not.
Matthew 7:21-23 spells the difference out and the end result. Note v.23 and what Jesus is saying, "I NEVER knew you. Depart, you who break God's laws."
There's alot of ways this can be approached, and it is up to you to follow the Spirit's lead.
Last time this was dealt with, over the course of 5 weeks, it came down to the chap being told because he was not repentant for walking in sin, a he still staked a claim to being saved, he had no business among us. (The pastors nor elders had the nerve to approach Him, but would not hesitate to talk behind his back. Seeing this, i went and began dealing with him one on one, telling the leaders to pray in accord with me about this, that this guy will experience the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Whenever He is brought to mind, like now, he is one of many who are interceeded for. He walked away and avoids me like the plague now, except when he needs something.
The leaders became very harsh towards him when he showed up for an after church feast, and though i could not abide in this at that moment, God did not indicate to me to do anything otherwise.
Redfaced, i backed the lead of those overseeing that Body when he looked at me and said, "so this is what you call Christian love?".
i said, "Yes, but only to those who claim to be part of the Faith but their lives do not show it. You are not of this family, and until you admit it and repent, 'shun' is the word."
If they have a relationship in Jesus Christ, they have a different relationship with sin, plain and simple. Paul says we are to have nothing to do with those who claim to be believers yet do not live it.
I take seriously that we are our brothers keeper:) In another words we are their to help and support one another, and those times when we see a sister in sin, in love we share with them in hopes that they will repent and turn to God:)
Your concern was sensed the moment the starter you wrote for this thread was read. Do not hesitate to share Him you know as Truth.
The flesh can cause one to do things that just are not in keeping at all with God. This is an issue of not denying self,and making Christ's cross their own... however from what you indicate, she seems to be so non-chalant about the whole issue <--a definite warning sign of which side she may be on.
If the Lord has placed it on your heart to persist with her, by all means do so; but, if you two have any affinity-->(like the fellow i dealt with mentioned above), It will be a matter of learning to ignore what you think or feel and following His leading...irregardless.
We shall pray that God brings her to the place to recognize her need as a deep desire in her grows towards God's ways and will.
Begin pointing as many conversations as you can towards what God is doing in your life and what he will do for anybody who is willing to follow Him.
one of many friends here,
p.s. the whole judgemental thing was intended as a disclaimer and not a pointing of fingers at you. Knowing this post would prolly be read by many, it was written as such, and the end word signing off: agapeo was intended to indicate this failing to regard that most readers will say, "that's greek to me." Agapeo is a verb indicating social civility akin to what you are learning from Him in being your brothers keeper.
| 2010/4/29 18:13|
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I was asking this question because of a woman who professes to be a christian but shows no fruit in her life what so ever. She does not like to read the Bible, she hates being around other Christians most of the time(her words) she does not want to be bothered with extending herself to others, she holds on to anger(for soon to be ex husband). She does not believe that anything is required of her in her relationship with Christ. He died for her, she accepted that and she is saved(her explanation of what she believes being saved means) She does not see a need to die to self, repent of sin(she said she already did it that one time) or to live a holy life. She really believes she is saved and I am praying about how to share with her because honestly her life bares no fruit...
That does indeed shed a little different light on the discussion. I know of a lot of people who would say they were Christians due to the fact that they were born in America and their money says, "In God We Trust". Obviously they are deceived. This woman sounds deceived as well. I will pray that God gives you a way to lovingly but honestly open the scriptures to her and show her what it means to be saved. It is possible she was born again, but is sounds like she most likely believes something akin to ,"I came forward and had my ticket punched so I must be OK."
| 2010/4/29 22:41||Profile|