| Poster | Thread | MaryJane
Member
Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057
| | Re: | | Quote:
Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head."
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Had a nice discussion with my husband and feel that my question was answered:)
God bless
mj
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|  2010/4/29 21:19 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hi RoseM...
Oddly enough, I don't find it nonsensical at all. How do you explain the conclusion of the entire passage? "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: FOR HER HAIR IS GIVEN HER FOR A COVERING." - I Corinthians 11:15
Now, are there any other passages in Scripture by which those who adhere to such a strict interpretation base their belief?
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Christopher
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| | 2010/4/29 21:36 | Profile | ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: | | Quote:
Now, are there any other passages in Scripture by which those who adhere to such a strict interpretation base their belief?
No. But how often does God have to tell a person something in order for it to be understood? God told Adam and Eve only once to not eat of the tree....
Scripture teaches us more about headship, head covering and the reasons for it then he does communion (the taking of the bread and wine).
Blessings,
ginnyrose
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Sandra Miller
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| | 2010/4/29 21:56 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss
Member
Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hi Sister Ginny...
Quote:
Scripture teaches us more about headship, head covering and the reasons for it then he does communion (the taking of the bread and wine).
I very much disagree. This passage in I Corinthians 11 is certainly not abundantly clear to all believers -- and certainly not as clear as communion as described in three of the Gospels (and a couple more times in the epistles...including this same chapter to the Corinthians). In fact, many sincere believers (men and women) simply do not embrace an interpretation of I Corinthians 11:3-15 as pertaining to a manufactured piece of cloth worn somewhere on top of a woman's hair. Many of us feel quite convinced through prayerful study that this passage refers to hair (as specifically concluded in I Corinthians 11:15).
As said before, I don't have a problem with men and women who interpret this passage as a mandate for wearing a manufactured piece of cloth on top of their hair. However, I am concerned about pastors and church rules that mandate such a practice as a requirement for fellowship, ministry or involvement or as a physical standard of holiness in others. My wife and I have attended local congregations that held to such a mandate. When we told them that we were believers, we literally saw the eyes look at the lack of a piece of cloth on her head with that "suuuuurrre you are" look in their eyes. In fact, they even made an extra effort to evangelize us (or "explain the Word of God more adequately") every time we visited.
While I don't think that the believers who adhere to such a practice here on SermonIndex are guilty of such a thing, there are some local congregations (and even sectarian organizations) who do so. There are many Christian women here on SermonIndex and in churches around the world who do not embrace such a practice or see it in Scripture. Yet many of those same women believe in the Scriptural headship of Christ and their husbands. I think that it would be wrong to believe otherwise.
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Christopher
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| | 2010/4/29 22:19 | Profile | RoseM
Member
Joined: 2010/4/28
Posts: 17
Hazelton, BC, Canada
| | Re: | | ccchhhrrriiisss said Quote:
Oddly enough, I don't find it nonsensical at all. How do you explain the conclusion of the entire passage? "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: FOR HER HAIR IS GIVEN HER FOR A COVERING." - I Corinthians 11:15
I don't consider this to be a conclusion. I consider it to be the final argument. Long hair is a natural covering, we know in our hearts that it is good for woman to have hair. The natural covering is pointed out to show that covering ones head with fabric really is natural and good.
Another thing that speaks in defence for Paul speaking of a fabric covering is the testimony of the early church writers. Tertullian points out that the Corinthian woman in 200AD wore physical coverings and claimed that this practice went back to the time of the apostles (I'll find the reference to this if anyone wants it). Clement also mentioned fabric coverings. I find it hard to believe that the interpretation of Paul's writings would have changed so dramatically within only 150 years.
I find it helpful when pondering the interpretation of a certain passage to look to the early church writers to see how they interpreted the passage. They weren't perfect but they were a whole lot more likely to not have mixed in cultural baggage or translation peculiarities into their interpretations.
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Rose
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| | 2010/4/29 22:22 | Profile | sleepless
Member
Joined: 2006/4/14
Posts: 4
| | Re: | | so for a man it is a shame to have any hair since hair is covering. hi dishonor his Head (Christ)
I see two different words used when refer to covering.
in verse 6 and verse 15 we do not have the same word for what is translate in English cover.
6 For ifG1487 a womanG1135 does not coverG2619 her head, let her alsoG2532 have her hairG2751 cutG2751 offG2751; but ifG1487 it is disgracefulG150 for a womanG1135 to have her hairG2751 cutG2751 offG2751 orG2228 her head shavedG3587a, let her coverG2619 her head.
15 but ifG1437 a womanG1135 hasG2863 longG2863 hairG2863, it is a gloryG1391 to her?
For her hairG2864 is givenG1325 to her for a coveringG4018.
G2619
κατακαλύπτω
katakaluptō
kat-ak-al-oop'-to
From G2596 and G2572; to cover wholly, that is, veil: - cover, hide.
G4018
περιβόλαιον
peribolaion
per-ib-ol'-ah-yon
Neuter of a presumed derivative of G4016; something thrown around one, that is, a mantle, veil: - covering, vesture.
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| | 2010/4/29 23:31 | Profile | ginnyrose
Member
Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: | | Chris, you and I have been down this road too many times. I know that whenever this topic comes up I know what you will say. I know I cannot help you see it and by the grace of God I hope to remain steadfast in my obedience to this scripture.
I have worn a head covering for many years. There were two times when I was severely tempted to discard its use/application. But God gave me the grace to withstand it. One of the temptations came in the form of "but there are so many other women out there who are Christians and they don't wear it, so why do I have to?" Another temptation says "I do not want to be different from everybody else on the street!" And I don't...
The wearing of a head covering has given me umpteen opportunities to witness - happens when people ask me "why do you wear that thing on your head?" This gives me many opportunities to speak for the LORD. And I do it with delight and joy, unspeakable. This is just one of the blessings one receives for wearing it.
To me the subject of women in leadership over males become a ridiculous question when application of 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 is followed. It becomes a non-issue.
God bless.
ginnyrose
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Sandra Miller
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| | 2010/4/30 7:47 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss
Member
Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hi Sister Ginnyrose...
Quote:
Chris, you and I have been down this road too many times. I know that whenever this topic comes up I know what you will say. I know I cannot help you see it and by the grace of God I hope to remain steadfast in my obedience to this scripture.
Like you, I participate in threads about this subject when it comes up. Like you, I know where you stand. But also just like you, I think that I have the grace to share the insight that I feel the Lord has given me. I am not trying to be contentious...just as I am sure that you aren't either. I just would like to point out that there is some divergence of opinion about this practice even in the Body of Christ here on SermonIndex.
I suppose that I have already articulated views about this passage of Scripture and my concerns about mandating such a practice in the Church. To be clear, I am not at all opposed to women wearing a piece of cloth on their heads. I am not even opposed to women wearing a piece of cloth on their heads because they think that the Scriptures encourage it. Rather, I am concerned that many have taken this practice to an extent that it reminds us of the argument about circumcision in the early Church. It can literally be used to divide the Body of Christ based upon a particular interpretation of a single passage.
There are some congregations that use a particular interpretation of Scripture in how it relates to such a practice as the measuring stick for holiness or involvement/ministry in the local Church. There is no room for an alternate prayerful opinion about this in many of those congregations. While some of them will not consider it essential for salvation, many will still use it as a requirement for any sort of involvement in the local church. Some will even "cast off" those women who do not adhere to the practice.
There are many believers who have sought God about this and have simply arrived to a different understanding of the passage. Just like you, it seems very clear to us. The Textus Receptus of I Corinthians 11:15 speaks about how LONG HAIR ("komaō" -- grown, long hair) is for a woman's glory...and HAIR ("komē" -- a head of hair) is given to her for a COVERING ("peribolaion" -- a mantle or veil...from the room "periballō" meaning "to put around, surround, or clothe").
I have spoken to my wife, her family and other godly women about this. Several of them have expressed that they could not practice such a thing "in good faith." Many of them explained that the Scriptures do not seem to indicate a requirement or mandate for such a practice, so they simply do not practice it. All of them see their long hair as the natural head covering provided by God. Some of those same women have expressed that they would quickly and gladly practice it IF they thought that the Lord (or even their husbands) required it. Interestingly, many of these women are the most submissive women that I have ever met! They do not even question the notion of women in leadership over males.
Please understand that I am not opposed to women who prayerfully choose to practice such a thing in good faith. It isn't the practice or ritual of the idea that concerns me at all. Like you have pointed out, it is possible for women to wear cloth on top of their head and still be extremely non-submissive to both their husbands AND Christ. It reminds me of being outwardly circumcised yet lacking the "circumcision of the heart" (Romans 2:25-29).
Ultimately, I think that believers (including pastors and overseers) should be careful to allow other believers to have the grace to prayerfully obey as the Lord guides them. I do not think that believing women should be looked down upon as though they are "disobedient" or less spiritual IF they do not interpret that passage the way that others might. I do not think that the placement of a piece of manufactured cloth atop of the head of a woman (or lack thereof) is any sort of definitive indication of the level of submission in a woman. Nor do I think that it should be a condition for involvement in a congregation.
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Christopher
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| | 2010/4/30 12:52 | Profile | ginnyrose
Member
Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: | | Chris, I would like to ask you a question, OK?
Supposing one day your wife comes to you and says "Honey, you know what? The Holy Spirit has been convicting me that I should wear a head covering as taught in 1 Corinthians 11:1-16. Would it be OK if I go ahead and do it?"
What would you say? Would you try to talk her out of it or would you encourage her to go ahead?
ginnyrose
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Sandra Miller
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| | 2010/4/30 15:25 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Hi sister Ginnyrose, I thought I would run this past you. I think that you are a balanced woman of God. My wife, whom I love dearly, loves her hair. She spends a lot of money on it and a lot of time on it before leaving the house. In fact, her whole day can be ruined by having a "bad hair day." When I wrote a piece on money a few years ago, what people spent on dogs and ice-crean and alcohol and so on, one of the highest spending activities in the US was the beauty salon and beauty products, it was countless billions.
Would you agree, when it comes to vanity in a woman(and I know many vain men) it would start with the hair? I guess the point I am trying to make is that the Scripture relating to covering ones' hair if you are a lady, could well have something to do with vanity? Much like the call in the Scriptures that calls for "modest,' clothes to be worn by the Godly woman. Just some thoughts on the Scripture and how it may be related to humility in its practical application...........brother Frank
ps my wife is not a Christian, I was just using her as an example of a woman who loves her hair :) |
| | 2010/4/30 16:54 | |
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