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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Piper on Predetermined sin

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subpolar
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 9


 Re: Salvation plan pre-determined, but not man's conformity to the plan

I have prayed God open our eyes to see His love.

He cares! The story of the lost sheep tells us that.

I believe God has, and gives, answers to questions. Daniel said as much to the King Nebuchadnezzar.

I hope that perhaps I can help with a possible answer to the question of whether salvation is predetermined for some, and whether others are predetermined to be lost.

In brief, God does NOT pre-determine individuals to be lost.

God is long-suffering and NOT willing that ANY should perish, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD REPENT. Those last words imply that there is some requirement for man.

What if the PLAN is what is predetermined, and NOT the individual conformity to the plan?

Then everything makes sense - God did pre-determine the plan - that all who meet the conditions of salvation will be saved.

For example, it might be pre-determined that the team that wins enough football games (and the right ones) will go to the Super Bowl.

This is pre-determined, but... the specific team which goes to the Super Bowl is NOT pre-determined. That depends on which team wins certain games. There is a pre-determined PLAN, which also requires certain CONDITIONS to be met. The plan is pre-determined by some organization; the conditions are met by some team. BOTH have to do their part for the team to play in the Super Bowl, just as salvation depends on BOTH God and man.

(I know it's not a single team in the Super Bowl, but 2 teams that go to play - but that is irrelevant. Everything that applies to the one team also applies to the other.)

Parenthetically, while on the topic of God's conditions, let me put in here a word that His conditions are NOT difficult! (His yoke is easy, His burden is light, God's commandments are not grievous, the way of salvation is made so simple a fool would not err in it, ...)

This allows God to predetermine salvation, as a plan, BUT... also allows people the freedom of choice, and also ensures the justice of not forcing some people to miss out on salvation through no fault of their own.

This is not just a theory; this is consistent with the scriptures (God is not willing that any should perish - so, how could He cause them to perish?). Scriptures supposedly supporting pre-determination actually can be interpreted accurately and also consistently with the above view.

For example, I Th. 1:4 refers to the elect of God. Elect means chosen - God chooses. This does NOT require that the choice has no basis in what the individual chooses. For example, a US president may choose a cabinet member - but the choice depends on various factors (qualifications). The qualifications are handled by the individual being chosen, while the choice is handled by the one doing the choosing. Again, 2 entities are involved!

 2010/6/26 4:00Profile
MikeH
Member



Joined: 2006/9/21
Posts: 116


 Re:

Biggs wrote

Quote:
This I understand, by the Holy Spirit, that Free Will is only Free until we give it away to God. When that choice is made, then, and only then, are we more "like puppets" because it is totally, "Not my will, but they will be done".

Actually, it is totally the other way round. We are bound until we are set free by Christ, then we are free (indeed). Before we sinned because we were sins slave. Now we have been set free and can choose: sin and return to bondage, or live righteously and in holiness as a blessing to the Lord (this shouldn't be a difficult choice). Romans 6 makes this very clear; Paul lightheartedly suggests that we are now slaves to righteousness, but makes it clear we are not really slaves.

As to predetermined sin; if the logical deductions from a doctrinal position, become uncomfortable and ridiculous, perhaps the starting position is flawed.

Kind regards

Mike

 2010/6/26 10:07Profile
artemioL
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Joined: 2006/3/25
Posts: 27


 Re: Piper on Predetermined sin

tag

 2010/7/3 21:33Profile
Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

moreofHim, I totally understand what you're saying here:

"I can see the biblical basis, etc... but what i can't still fathom is that, let's say a terrible act is committed like severe child abuse or rape. According to this doctrine- then God ordained that to happen to that child. Of course, Piper or a Calvinist would explain that the abuser or rapist is still held responsible for their sin- even though God ordained it ??

Then down the road- how can you tell that child- God ordained for you to be abused/raped (so you can learn a good lesson through all this?) It's seems so cruel."

I can think of one specific Bible story that directly addresses this issue: the one of Joseph and his brothers. They kidnap, confine, and sell him into slavery, and then cover their atrocity with lies and deception. You know the story. Come full circle to the end and Joespeh reconciles their wicked plan like this: "What you planned for evil, God meant for good."

As for the rest of your post, volumes and volumes have been written wrestling with those questions. I certainly won't presume to answer them in a mere post. I have come to believe that all things are of Him, to Him, and through Him, and all He does is good. So while it would be heinous to call evil good, it is good that evil exists or it simply would not.


_________________
Paul

 2010/7/4 0:58Profile
JB1968
Member



Joined: 2009/8/31
Posts: 416
Ohio USA

 Re:

God doesn't cause us to sin. See James 1:12,13,14,15,16.
God does not want us to sin. Romans 6:1-2,11-12,13-14,15-16,17-18.
I've heard it said that committing sins is our fault. It is not our fault that nature of sin is there, but it is our fault for it remaining there, since in Christ there is a remedy for sin.

"I can think of one specific Bible story that directly addresses this issue: the one of Joseph and his brothers. They kidnap, confine, and sell him into slavery, and then cover their atrocity with lies and deception. You know the story. Come full circle to the end and Joespeh reconciles their wicked plan like this: "What you planned for evil, God meant for good."
God can take a bad situation and turn it around for His glory. Did He cause it, No. But in spite of it, He turned it around.


_________________
James

 2010/7/4 1:20Profile









 Re:

I struggled with this too.

My Reformed pastor told me that the abuse in my childhood was God`s will for me and the foolish mistake I made in marrying an unsaved man when I was backslidding was His will as well even when it contradicts His commands - how much nonsense is that??

GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF SIN

This I had to work out for myself.

Now that it is far behind me I can see how utterly ridiculous it was. God wants us to grow spiritually and it is through suffering it can happen (though not always) so good did come out of it but that was not His perfect will for me to have that sort of suffering, He just used it for a higher purpose.

So why did He not step in and prevent it and all the suffering in the world? I have come to have peace about that. We cannot know some things but if we are obedient to Him and trust Him regardless, then He can make us whole and as if the damage done had never happened.

What do you think is giving you compulsions to go back to that church? Who would like you to continue with spiritual abuse?

 2010/7/4 1:38
Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Amen to all your cited verses. Proper reformed understanding of this position says that man is entirely responsible for his sins and will only ever go to hell because of them.

As for the Genesis passage, here's how it reads:

Genesis 50:20
But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

God didn't salvage something with Joseph; it was a sovereign plan designed to save not only Joseph's family (thus preserve the line of promise) but also save many heathen lives through that famine. Nations came to Egypt for food during those lean years, and they found it because God had planned.


_________________
Paul

 2010/7/4 9:26Profile
Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

"So why did He not step in and prevent it and all the suffering in the world? I have come to have peace about that. We cannot know some things but if we are obedient to Him and trust Him regardless, then He can make us whole and as if the damage done had never happened."

This KF, reads well for both sides of this discussion.


_________________
Paul

 2010/7/4 9:28Profile
subpolar
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 9


 Re: Giggles

If this is seen as a "sovereign plan" because the verse says "God meant it for good", then look at other translations also.

Actually, the verse in question reads as below in other translations:

Gen. 50:20

(BBE) ..., but God has given a happy outcome, ...

(CEV) ..., but God made it turn out for the best, ...

(DRB) ...: but God turned it into good, ...

BBE = Bible in Basic English
CEV = Common English Version
DRB = Douay-Rheims Bible

None of these translations say that it was a sovereign plan.

 2010/7/12 15:52Profile
subpolar
Member



Joined: 2010/6/26
Posts: 9


 Re: Was Suffering of Joseph Necessary for God's Sovereign Plan?

And, if God wanted to deal with the famine, was this (the bad things that happened to Joseph) the only way God had available? Couldn't the God who turned water into wine, also turn rocks into food? Remember when Jesus fed the thousands? Was the suffering of Joseph necessary?

We see that it was not necessary for bad things to happen to Joseph for the feeding of people during a famine, and that this requirement is not logical.

What IS logical is that in spite of what already happened, God did something good.

 2010/7/12 15:56Profile





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