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moreofHim
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Joined: 2003/10/15
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 Piper on Predetermined sin

Has anyone read or heard this question and answer session of Piper's. I am struggling with this same question right now and questions similar to it.

http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/2370_has_god_predetermined_everything_even_sin/

(Sorry, I couldn't get the url link thing to work)

Questions similar to this are driving me crazy right now. I can see why J. Piper said that it can drive some people mad :)

One of my questions after listening to this Q&A session is:
Lets say someone is a christian and is tempted to commit adultery. if they believed what Piper teaches here- wouldn't they be thinking 'well, should i fight this temptation with everything in me or has God already predetermined that I am going to fall"?

I mean if God already predetermined everything including all suffering and sin- it can leave you feeling hopeless- like we are just puppets.

I know many people try to explain that God predetermines everything but that we also have a free will to make choices. But I don't know how it can be both. How can God hold us responsible for sin that he already predetermined?

If anyone is going to reply,please try to answer in a simple manner. I don't really want to wade through a long theology article. and please read or view the video first as well so you know where i am getting this information :)

In Him...


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Chanin

 2010/4/25 17:44Profile
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Joined: 2010/4/23
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 Re: Piper on Predetermined sin

Your presupposition is true as long as you believe what Piper is saying is true. If it is true, then that truth makes prayer redundant, doesn't it? If "everything" is predestined, why ask God to heal a loved one, lead you to the vocation where He wants you to serve Him, and so on? Oh, I can hear it already, "that's already been 'predestined', we just think God's doing what we are asking when we pray, but we're too limited in our understanding to know that we are predestines for these things already."

This I understand, by the Holy Spirit, that Free Will is only Free until we give it away to God. When that choice is made, then, and only then, are we more "like puppets" because it is totally, "Not my will, but they will be done".

Unfortunately, it is my opinion, there may not be more than a few on this earth who are so are so unselfish to completely "die to self" as to allow God full control of our will. As much as I desire it, I see many things each day that tell me that I'm not even close to "doing the things I do not want to do".

If you are predestines to have these types of things drive you crazy, then there's nothing you can do about it. For me, is too short of a drive and I'd rather be predestined to bask in His lovingkindness, ponder His ways in my life, and ask Him to make me be who He wants me to be in every aspect of who I am.

M.B. Mathews


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Michael Bigley

 2010/4/25 18:42Profile
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 Re: Piper on Predetermined sin

GOD gives to man reason and will and the
ability to choose.
But man is by nature selfish and places
his desires, interests, needs above GOD'S
purpose and will for him.
Sin is a principle within our natures.
When man willfully chooses not to follow
and serve GOD


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Martin G. Smith

 2010/4/25 20:14Profile
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 Re:

Even if this doctrine were true, which I don't believe that it is, I see very little practical application for it. At best, it gives you an "aha" moment with some goosebumps, and an excuse to live a sub-par life. It makes you say, even as a Christian, that the reason you cannot overcome your habitual sins is because God has determined you need to keep them for some unspecified time and reason. Nevermind such stands in stark contrast to Romans 8, which says God predestined us to be conformed to the image of Christ. it does not say he predestined us to live our lives below where Christ would actually have us to live.

*edit*

Granted, Piper would say all this doctrine does is lead to glorifying God. But really... does it do that simply because he says it does? I believe God gets more glory out of your life when you don't sin, and walk in obedience to Him. Seems God would therefor be robbing Himself of glory, all in the name of some convoluted doctrine that says He gets glory best this way.


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Jimmy H

 2010/4/25 22:23Profile
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 Re:

Keith Daniel discusses this in his audio sermon here @ SI titled, "The Tightrope Walker"; sorry I couldn't hyper-link the sermon here on my cell. You may recall the Apostle Paul saying in his letter to the Romans, "...Shall we go on sinning that grace may increase? By no means!" & in another place, "Do not give the devil a foothold." God is sovereign; however, man still has a choices to make. We as professors must strive to enter into the kingdom of God. God imparts His grace to the humble that ask Him.


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Richie

 2010/4/26 1:10Profile
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 Re:

Without getting into the specifics of this hairy debate, which has been debated to death, I will say that Piper would emphasize the flip side as well, that God has pre-ordained you not to sin as well. So when the situation comes up do you do this sin or not, focus not on "well if I do it, God ordained me too." Rather say "well God doesn't tempt me beyond what I can bear and moreso He has ordained a way out of this situation so I don't have to sin."


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Paul

 2010/4/26 1:39Profile
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 Re:

Was thinking some more about this thread and realized to understand Piper's motivation, you have to understand Piper full-spectrum on God's sovereignty. He is actually a professing 7 point Calvinist, but in no way a hyper-Calvinist. He fully asserts the responsibility of man. Through a phrase he uses, "being more biblical than theological," he keeps the tension that we do have to do something even though at the end of the day God has planned it all. I could post a link or 2 later where he explains this more if anyone is interested.

Back to the topic, he comes to this conclusion of God planning all things by scripture (could list some if you're interested, but you probably know them) and by looking at a topic like suffering. If something tragic happens to a family, a car accident killing a child, he is telling them that God is the one behind it. Why? Because otherwise what, he tells them God didn't mean for this to happen and He's just as upset about it as they are? He says if that's the case then he'll give up Christianity because a god like that isn't worth serving. He says rather that God is behind it and somehow, pulling on that Romans 8:28-30 text, this is working out for their good and conformity to Christ.

Also he arrives at this conclusion because of his view of cross centrality to life, another example that combines both suffering and sin. He views the cross as the most "spectacular" sin ever committed: the betrayal, slander, abuse, and violent murder of the Son of God. It's an interesting way to view the cross. Before I heard him described it that way, I never really looked at the cross as the people sinning, though clearly they did. Anyhoo, based off his view of sovereignty and supporting verses that make Christ's death look fore-ordained from before the foundation of the earth, he would assert that God wholly planned this heinous sin, and from that sin, His glory was certainly displayed. And so working from the cross outward, as far as a mind can handle it, he believes the same about other sins. As a side note, to the one who would abuse such a teaching and use it as license to sin, Piper would surely view them as unregenerate and the glory God will get from their sinning will be the wrath displayed on judgment day to which they are storing up.


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Paul

 2010/4/26 9:27Profile
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 Re:

Giggles, I can totally see Piper's view here. I can see the biblical basis, etc... but what i can't still fathom is that, let's say a terrible act is committed like severe child abuse or rape. According to this doctrine- then God ordained that to happen to that child. Of course, Piper or a Calvinist would explain that the abuser or rapist is still held responsible for their sin- even though God ordained it ??

Then down the road- how can you tell that child- God ordained for you to be abused/raped (so you can learn a good lesson through all this?) It's seems so cruel.

This brings up so many questions like this to me. I myself thought I was leaning toward being Reformed- until these questions starting popping up in my mind. I have had alot of suffering in my own life and have had to learn to make choices- to not have self pity, to choose to have joy and be happy anyway despite suffering. Now more than ever I see that we might have more free will than i thought.

I am confused and i can't accept right now that God is sovereign, so sovereign that he ordains heinous crimes and abuse and rape and murder (supposedly for the good of others and his glory) - ANd on top of that He isn't responsible for the crime but a human being is held responsble for the crime/sin. I can't wrap my mind around that.

Also can't wrap my mind around- if God predestined some people to go to heaven and others to go to hell- why would He allow the people who are predestined to go to Hell- why would he allow them to be born knowing they would spend eternity in Hell. They didn't choose to be born. They didn't get a chance. I don't see how as a Calvinist you can say they have a choice- yet are predestined for Hell already.

I wasn't asking only about sin or people using an excuse to sin :)

Thanks all for your responses so far.

In Him......


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Chanin

 2010/4/26 11:14Profile
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 Re:

When I am at our reformed church and always hear someone say 'we deserve nothing but hell' but I know that they believe Calvinist/reformed doctrine. I struggle because i know they believe that God preordained the fall of man so that Jesus could come and save man from sin. I don't see how God can hold Adam and Eve responsible or man responsible for the fall and our sinful nature- when He already planned for it to all happen this way so he could send Jesus as savior.

Again, it seems as is man were just a pawn so that God can look good. I hate even saying this. I have been a follower of Christ for some time- but i have no peace right now about any of this.

I mean, when reformed people or calvinists then reply to these questions,they say, well God can do whatever He wants. I feel like asking why God created us in the first place- to glorify Him- I know- but if we are just pawns- it seems like a cruel game.

I know Jay Adams, a leading Biblical and reformed counselor and author, teaches christians to NOT tell their unsaved counselees that Jesus died for them- because that isn't the truth.

Still thinking :)


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Chanin

 2010/4/26 11:40Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Then down the road- how can you tell that child- God ordained for you to be abused/raped (so you can learn a good lesson through all this?) It's seems so cruel.



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Why would you tell the child that? I was abused when I was a very young at the hand of an older brother. I don't blame God for what happened, never have and I never will. I do believe my parents have accountability, especially my dad, for not giving his daughters proper covering while I was young and under his care. As an adult I am accountable for my choices, everyone goes through things in life, if one chooses to live for self those things will more then likely destroy you and eat you up, if you choose to live for Christ, there is such healing, peace and joy that is beyond what I can even express in words.

I think it just comes down to a matter of trusting and having faith in God. God is Holy, Just, and Sovereign, in all that He does. Look to the Cross, look what Jesus suffered and endured willingly for your and my sake, that is love beyond all comprehension! I have come to see that if I desire to know and love the Lord at some point I must trust and have faith that I am never going to have all the answers but knowing how much HE loves me is enough! This is just my heart on that matter, I will pray for you. I find that if I am always searching for "answers" i often miss out on precious time of just sitting at His feet and getting to know Jesus the person!

God Bless
mj

Edited to be hopefully more clear

 2010/4/26 11:40Profile





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