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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Can a woman teach???

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wind_blows
Member



Joined: 2009/1/4
Posts: 353


 Re:

Quote:
This discussion is not about wives submitting to their husbands, how can that be in dispute - it is clearly scriptural, it is about even godly men who have attitudes which are not of the kingdom and misogynistic even slightly and about the refusal of the church to see that this is a problem.


__________

Actually Brenda the topic was not about abuse at all, it has digressed into a couple of different topics. You began talking about abuse and the main topic of the thread was about whether a woman could teach men or not. To say or imply that a woman who is beaten is on par with a woman who is told she may not teach is a huge leap and not on the same level don't you think?

A woman teaching is not Biblical in my understanding if she is teaching over men, with out the covering of her husband and the elders in the church. I may be misunderstanding you(please correct me if I am??) but are you are saying that a woman not being allowed to teach over men is the same abuse as a women who is being beaten or sexual abused? The Bible does give clear teaching on this topic and its not abuse for the church body to say that a woman should not speak if that is what the Lord is leading them too.


Edit:to make somethings more clear:)

 2010/4/29 13:05Profile
wind_blows
Member



Joined: 2009/1/4
Posts: 353


 Re:

Frank wrote: It is His work to work in the hearts of men and if you mean by "re-education," the work of the Spirit through Godly council by Godly men that I would wholeheartedly agree with you. If, on the other hand, you mean a program or book or a lesson plan, then I would have to respectfully disagree. These deep issues are issues of the heart, this is exclusively the Lord's domain and we all know the Scripture "It is not by mignt, nor by power, but by my Spirit sayeth the Lord."
__________________

I agree with you on this Frank. Well said:)

 2010/4/29 13:09Profile









 Re:

Women not being allowed to teach over men, or hold authority within the church over men is the same as women who have been beaten or sexually assaulted? I truly hope thats not being implied...

What an insult to women who have been abused if that's the case.

Krispy

 2010/4/29 14:24
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Frank wrote:

Quote:
All I can say Brenda is that we will get in wrong many times, men in leadership , men in the church but following hard after Jesus will never lead you astray. It is His work to work in the hearts of men and if you mean by "re-education," the work of the Spirit through Godly council by Godly men that I would wholeheartedly agree with you. If, on the other hand, you mean a program or book or a lesson plan, then I would have to respectfully disagree. These deep issues are issues of the heart, this is exclusively the Lord's domain and we all know the Scripture "It is not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit sayeth the Lord."



AMEN, brother!

Scripture also says that "ALL things work together for good to those who are called..." Romans 8:28. Are we allowing God to use the bad things of life to reform us, to shape us into His image? Shaping, forming requires lots of pressure, tension. Do we fight it? or will we submit to it and ask God to help us to be open to its lessons? This applies to all who are serious about our faith. To fight it only worsens the situation. Modern feminists do not understand this and never will.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2010/4/29 19:25Profile
DIEDTOSELF
Member



Joined: 2006/12/20
Posts: 61
Minnesota

 Re:

How about a ministry outside of a church? Does a man have to be the leader of the ministry even if the ministry is for the families of those left behind by drug and alcohol addiction? Which in the most part directly deals with women and children. I recently left the church I have been attending over this issue. The Pastor insisted on no matter what the ministry the a man had to be the head of it.


_________________
Craig

 2010/4/29 19:27Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Quote:
How about a ministry outside of a church? Does a man have to be the leader of the ministry even if the ministry is for the families of those left behind by drug and alcohol addiction? Which in the most part directly deals with women and children. I recently left the church I have been attending over this issue. The Pastor insisted on no matter what the ministry the a man had to be the head of it.


________________

After reading Brother toms post that comes after this I decided to take down what I had written. A very good response to this question is given by brother Tom, I encourage all to read his post.

God Bless
maryjane

 2010/4/29 20:10Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: ATT. Brenda

Quote:
ginnyrose I will not be repeating things I have already said. I would just like to request that my salvation is not repeatedly questioned.



Brenda, I never did question your salvation. If, however, you felt the Holy Spirit convicting you of such in reading mine or anyone else's post you would do well to mind the Spirit of the LORD.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2010/4/29 21:47Profile









 Re: All of ISAIH 61, no direct leadership over men....


On the issue of ministry, and specifically women in it, I see it a little differently than most. When we use the WORD; ministry, we seem to always associate it with leadership and authority; with running a meeting.


A lot of these issues derive from the doctrines that the Church IS a meeting. The church has meetings, but the Church is not the "meeting"; the church is the local community. The church are the called out ones, that attend a meeting.

The second doctrine in fallacy is that the church is ran by men. It is not. The functions of the Church are directed by the holy spirit [ in every day life, and IN meetings ] We don't "come" to church. We are the church, and the church is Not male dominated. It[should be] is Jesus dominated, including males too.

The following idea then erupts. The doctrine of THE PASTOR[ and of course his sub-staff]. The clergy/laity heresy we've endured, as a church all of these ages. The most spiritual above, the lessor, learners below to receive.

This idea has destroyed the church; mangled and divided her into a PRIEST class over the children; and we have received that this IS what MINISTRY IS. This is a colossal lie. The MINISTRY is the ACTS of the Holy Spirit, as defined in Isaiah 61. Jesus spoke this on the day that He began His ministry. The Anointing of the Holy spirit is the ministry, and simply put, true ministry is the ministry of LIFE, derived from God Himself, and it is neither male, nor female. There is no male or female in Christ; but a nation of Priests and Kings; [ Queens too, if you will]. Women are as much a part of that holy Priesthood as men are. It is ; THE PRIESTHOOD OF THE BELIEVER!
Isaiah 61:1-4

“The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations."


Everything in these verses is the THEY....the trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, the re builders....the resurrectors of the ruins, the repairers, the healers. neither male, nor female, for it is the anointing; THE MINISTRY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THE WORLD!


The problem we face is the issue of authority. The OVERSEERS, the SHEPHERDS of this church must be male, due to a variety of weaknesses inherit in the female sex. This is abundantly clear in sound and ancient doctrine, but it IS NOT a place of superiority. It is a place of SERVANTHOOD, not benefaction.
Matthew 20:26-28

"You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them.

26. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant.

27. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave—

28. just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”


We see the ministry as exactly the thing Jesus commanded us to beware of. The benefactors; the Priesthood rulers of his holy church. IT IS NOT. true ministry is neither male nor female.....except in the realms of teaching, instruction over men, and exercising authority within the boundary's of the church. This is reserved , as I have said, for men only.

 2010/4/30 5:07









 Re: Elders and ministry...male and female.



What is the Shepherd?....THE PASTOR?

Firstly the only recorded instance of the PASTOR, singular, was confronted by the apostle as heresy; a usurping error.
3john1:9-11

9. "I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us.

10. Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church.

11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God."

John describes himself here as:

"The Elder", as he could have well been the last remaining living Apostle shepherd.

Pastor:Always; always plural....
Acts 14:22

[ the apostles..] "strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

23. "So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed."...plural

Titus 1:4-6
5. For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you—

ELDERS; PLURAL, AND MEN...

6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination.

WHAT DOES AN ELDER DO?

As I see it THEY assure that the Holy Spirit is not quenched and strives to feed the body with sound doctrine and the revelation of Christ in them.

They are to protect the body.
1Peter5:1-2


.. a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:
Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly.

1 Peter 5
{To Elders and Young Men}

1. "To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed:

2."Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;

3. not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.

4.And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away."

The ministry is the ministry of the Holy Spirit, which is neither male nor female. The Oversight of the church is MALE; and that is abundantly clear. It is not superior, but underneath as servants.

Any sister can function in all of Isaiah 61. Any sister can be as close to Jesus, and be used by Him as much as any male that ever lived; however without functioning as an elder...a shepherd; a pastor...[along with equal and submitted plurality of other elders. ;Unpaid, Unhired, unprofessional servants, filled with humility and power, adorned with God, serving from the bottom up, to grace the body, male and female with the fullness of Christ.
Ephesians 4:7-16

7 " to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
8 Therefore He says:

“ When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first[c] descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—

16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.


This five fold ministry by it's nature to function under the auspices of the authority of Christ, and His equipping aspect must also fall under the shepherd banner; men establishing churches and doctrine. IE, these are the men who establish the elders. These are not functions that women may participate in, for then they must by the nature of it; rule and teach men. This is forbidden by women as we have discussed, because of inherit weakness.


Everything else; ALL of Isaiah 61 is on the table, for the anointing, the moving and acts of the Holy spirit is neither male nor female.

 2010/4/30 6:09









 Re: A nation of



What ministry women can do....

Isaiah 61
The Good News of Salvation
1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.


1.] "Preach good tidings to the poor."...... Minister to the poor and tell them about Jesus.
2.]"Heal the brokenhearted"...minister the comfort of the Holy Spirit through His love and graces.
3.]to PROCLAIM that we must repent today, and that Jesus is returning. This is a matter of expressing your faith and loving the lost; IE; our testimony. women, if believers, overcome this way, as men do.
4.] "Proclaim liberty and opening the gates to release the prisoners to sin and death." Again, it is a natural emission of faith, neither male, nor female.

5.] "Console those who mourn and give them beauty for ashes, the oil of god to joy in Him; by faith, and exhibit worship; Praising Jesus, for He dwells in the praises of His people, not just the men.

5.]THEY, THEY, they are the called, the planters and the rebuilders. This is the Priesthood of the believer, the body; a NATION of Priests. Our sisters need to be delivered from male domination of a controlling spirit ; in this Brenda is right, and perhaps it is the root of her tenor in this entire discussion.


Ephesians 4 (New King James Version)

Ephesians 4:1-6
Walk in Unity

1. "I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called,

2. with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love,

3. endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

5. one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
How can you say any more?
and.....


1Peter2:8-10
9."But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10. "Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."


A generation, a Priesthood, a Nation, a People...

Not just one of the sexes...equal with equal ministries, but clearly different functions. Women should, and honestly must walk in power with all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit; every one of them listed, with the heart of Jesus leading. However, they must not attempt to teach men, or to rule over them as shepherds. This is their lot, and it is as glorious as it is for men, and liberating.

Our men are just co-heirs also.



 2010/4/30 6:40





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