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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Can somone like Jimmy Swaggart ever be more powerful than before?

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ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Power?

Restored to power? hhmmm.

I thought the church elders, pastors are called to serve?

What happened to serving? all are called to serve regardless of the past. If any and all would concentrate on serving, the issue of power would be irrelevant.

It just might be the best for all if no one is 'restored' to power...

Obviously, I dislike the concept of 'power' being exercised by one individual over another. That is carnal, is it not? Remember what Jesus had to say about that? Luke 22:23-27.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2010/4/9 9:37Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Yes it does brother, unless you are making an argument from silence?



The essence of my argument is that a man who has truly overcome his fall is a man who is living above reproach, and is thus qualified. The essence of your argument is that a man can never overcome his reproach, and forever bears it. My argument is that a man who has overcome his fall, and is presently living a Christ-like life in all aspects (including being the husband of only one wife) is a man who is no longer under reproach. You are insisting that such a man will always be a reproach, and can never rid himself of that, nevermind his present spiritual state.

I'm sorry Frank, I love you brother, but that's not Biblical. If a man is presently living a victorous life above reproach, and has clear history in this, he is no longer under reproach. Thus, the qualification that he be "above reproach" is satisfied. Thus, the Peter's of the Church can be restored to their eldership, in spite of their denial of Christ, and in spite of siding with Judaizers.


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Jimmy H

 2010/4/9 9:45Profile









 Re: MANASSEH and rivers of mercy.


This is the scriptural chronicle of Manasseh, of whom it is written; FILLED THE STREETS OF JERUSALEM WITH BLOOD..."

2 Chronicles 33:1

Manasseh King of Judah
1 Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years.

2 He did evil in the eyes of the LORD, following the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.

3 He rebuilt the high places his father Hezekiah had demolished; he also erected altars to the Baals and made Asherah poles. He bowed down to all the starry hosts and worshiped them.

4 He built altars in the temple of the LORD, of which the LORD had said, "My Name will remain in Jerusalem forever." 5 In both courts of the temple of the LORD, he built altars to all the starry hosts.

6.!!!!!! He sacrificed his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom,!!!! practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft,!!!!!! and consulted mediums and spiritists.!!!!
He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger...............

9 But Manasseh led Judah and the people of Jerusalem astray, so that they did more evil than the nations the LORD had destroyed before the Israelites.

10 The LORD spoke to Manasseh and his people, but they paid no attention. 11 So the LORD brought against them the army commanders of the king of Assyria, who took Manasseh prisoner,...and....

Put a hook in his nose, bound him with bronze shackles and took him to Babylon.!!


12 In his distress he sought the favor of the LORD his God and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers.

13 And when he prayed to him, the LORD was moved by his entreaty and listened to his plea; so he brought him back to Jerusalem and to his kingdom.


Then Manasseh knew that the LORD is God.


18 The other events of Manasseh's reign, including his prayer to his God and the words......


Manasseh would have put NERO to shame, yet he was forgiven, and restored..even in Fullness. We will meet Manasseh in Heaven one day, Not because of any goodness in himself, but for glory to a God who delights Himself in MERCY.


The first King, Saul, was not forgiven; for seemingly minor infractions compared to Manasseh. God looks upon the heart; man looks upon the flesh; the outward.


Certainly, in spirit and in type, Manasseh would qualify as the ordained authority in Israel. A pastor may certainly be restored to his authority in the Church also. God sees real faith and repentance.

Romans 9:16
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."


 2010/4/9 9:59









 Re:

Jimmy writes....

"I'm sorry Frank, I love you brother, but that's not Biblical"

Brother, I have given you the Scriptures that lay down the qualifications for an elder. In reply, you have given me your opinion, which is fine and your entitled to it. Its interesting that you make no comment as to the Matthew Henry commentary, which simply lays out what this Scripture is saying. Also you make no comment as the the man who would be divorced, for non Biblical reason, re-marries and then lives 20 years above reproach or however long you would deem that the time frame would have to be(please clarify) Would that man be qualified to be an elder? If not whay not?

I hate to stress the point, but this Scripture is not about a man not finding forgiveness or redemption before the throne, its simply about whether a man is qualified, as laid down by God Himself, to be an elder. I love you too brother, but I think I am going to stick with the Scriptures on this one :)..........brother Frank

 2010/4/9 11:11









 Re:

Quote:
Scripture lays down a standard for those holding office.

Where was the standard at for David and Bathsheba? The standard said, "the adulterer and the adulteress are to be stoned". Where was the Standard when David killed Uriah?

David said that he meditated on the law of the Lord day and night. And he knew that he deserved death and cried unto God for mercy and God heard him and David's child died in his stead.

Did David stop being King?

There was certainly consequences, however, he still retained his office of being a Pastor over the flock of Israel, he was subject to the reproaches of those around him.

Now, if God can wink at all that and forget about it, how much more under the New Covenant of a "better covenant"? God certainly raised the bar of tolerance.

What a merciful God we have. He is merciful to the merciful, the more mercy He shows me the more I fear Him.

Please don't use the words of Paul as if he established a law that we are to be bound with. Our righteousness is by faith and if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the righteous who will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 2010/4/9 11:24
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Brother, I have given you the Scriptures that lay down the qualifications for an elder. In reply, you have given me your opinion,



I have exegetted the Scriptures here. Your opinion that once scandalized always scandalized is unfounded in this passage, and is something that does not hold up. You are totally discounting the possibility that a man could be re-tested, which is something the passage does not do. You insist in holding him forever in reproach, which is something that passage does not do.

Quote:

Its interesting that you make no comment as to the Matthew Henry commentary, which simply lays out what this Scripture is saying.



I didn't see Matthew Henry saying anything worth commenting on.

Quote:

Also you make no comment as the the man who would be divorced, for non Biblical reason,



I did in passing, and consider it a side issue not really germaine to the topic, since we are talking about whether a fallen individual can become above reproach again. But since you asked again, I will address it. An elder must be the husband of one-wife, period. Somebody who is involved in an unbiblical remarriage cannot qualify as an elder, because Biblically speaking, he is the husband of more than one wife. He is of course free to do other ministries within the Church, but, cannot be held up as a model for the Church, because he is involved in an unbiblical remarriage, which automatically makes it impossible for him meet the qualification in 1 Tim 3.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2010/4/9 11:52Profile









 Re:

Jimmy writes..........

"Somebody who is involved in an unbiblical remarriage cannot qualify as an elder, because Biblically speaking, he is the husband of more than one wife. He is of course free to do other ministries within the Church, but, cannot be held up as a model for the Church, because he is involved in an unbiblical remarriage, which automatically makes it impossible for him meet the qualification in 1 Tim 3."

So, there is no redemption from an unbiblical re-marriage since you are tying redemption to re-instatement. Well, fair enough, I guess you are picking and choosing which qualification stands and which does not.

"I didn't see Matthew Henry saying anything worth commenting on."

Not sure what to make of that, since what he spoke of was "germaine,' to the very subject we are discussing. Its fine to disagree with Matthew Henry if you like. Last point...no clarity on the time frame?...........brother Frank

 2010/4/9 12:02









 Re:

Quote:
which automatically makes it impossible for him meet the qualification in 1 Tim 3.

I like it when God goes over our head and does things regardless of what we think is "Standard".

I have heard it time and time again that "God will not go against His word". God has and will on occasion.

 2010/4/9 17:22
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

So, there is no redemption from an unbiblical re-marriage since you are tying redemption to re-instatement.



I believe he could be re-installed if he met the qualifications of being beyond reproach, namely, through the death of his current wife, or if his former wife re-marries or dies. But so long as he lives as somebody who is not the husband of one wife, then he is not above reproach and cannot qualify, and thus, cannot be re-installed.

For example, an elder at my former church was a divorcee from 20+ years ago. He never remarried, but stayed a eunuch for Christ's sake. His former wife did remarry though. Under the guidelines of 1 Tim 3, I believe he still qualifies, as he is still technically the husband of one wife.

Quote:

no clarity on the time frame?.



Paul never establishes any time frame for anything. He says in 1 Timothy 3 that elders should not be new converts. Yet we see in Acts that he appointed men as elders who were saved only a couple years. Now a days, I can't say I know anybody who has ever served as an elder without being a Christian at least 10 or more years. I think the actual time frame is entirely a subjective thing, and depends more on a what "seemed good to the Spirit and to us" sorta thing.

Personally for me, if an elder fell and was looking to one day be restored, I would like to see at least a 2-3 year probationary period before the subject was ever brought up again.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2010/4/9 18:51Profile









 Re:

JImmy writes........

"I believe he could be re-installed if he met the qualifications of being beyond reproach, namely, through the death of his current wife, or if his former wife re-marries or dies. But so long as he lives as somebody who is not the husband of one wife, then he is not above reproach and cannot qualify, and thus, cannot be re-installed."

Forgive me brother but I believe that you are all over the place on this issue..........brother Frank

 2010/4/9 20:52





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