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Hi Silo, read the Scripture that I quoted. Do you agree or disagree with that Scripture?...........Frank
| 2010/4/8 17:18|
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Hi trueblue, your mixing apples and oranges. Remember, when Peter was accused of playing the hypocrite, it was because he was playing to the Judaizers, and to resolve the problem they would have a council. This working out of practical theology has nothing to do with a recognized elder disgracing the name of Jesus on an international level and thus disqualifying himself according to 1st Timothy. I know that we can all have opinions on this, any discussion must be based on what Scripture tells us. What do you think of 1st Timothy and if it does not apply to brother Jimmy, why not? ............Frank
| 2010/4/8 17:23|
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Hey Bro....sorry im unfamiliar with the term apples and oranges.Firstly Pauls rebuke was to Peter for not walking according to truth..( So you dont think that Peter brought disgrace to the master if he was not walking according to truth..what was he walking to??)Are we only disqalifying because of sexual immorality?.Secondly these are the pre conditions for eldership in 1 Tim...again David never lost the throne did he??...let me ask the question, is Gods anointing on Jimmys minsitry now or not??..if it is then why??
| 2010/4/8 17:33||Profile|
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HI trueblue, apples and oranges is a British term that simply means you are comparing two things that do not match. Peter was playing the hypocrite because he was acting as one under the law( in no way does that compare to adultery with a harlot) Paul, who had the revelation and spelled out that revelation in Galatians and Romans which the Apostles later accepted as Scripture, was teaching what it meant to be free from the Law and not to be under it.
Now, lets jump forward two thousand years and refer to Scripture which is our guikde and a lamp unto our feet and is a basis for our opinions. 1 Tim, clearly spells out what it means to be an elder. The Scriptures are not broken and the Holy Spirit does not contradict the Word. You talk about some "anoiting," that brother Jimmy has. I have no idea if he has an anointing or not. What I do know is what the criptures say. Time and time again we say on this site that we must act according to Scriptures and test all things by Scriptures. That is all that I am saying. Your counter argument seems to be "but he has an anoiting." Brother, I am a Pentecostal and if I had a dollor for every time I heard that I would be a rich man.
I believe that you could ignorantly go to a Benny Hinn gathering and God could speak to you. Would that mean Benny Hinn has an anointing, or Todd Bentley or any other person who has a public ministry? .........Frank
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
| 2010/4/8 20:47|
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David never lost the throne did he?
As great an example this is for God's restoration, Brother Swaggart refused correction, King David however cried for I believe 7 days straight begging for God's anointing and presence not to leave him. Also King David isn't the example we are to model out walk after but Jesus Christ who is the Author and Finisher of our faith.
| 2010/4/8 21:20||Profile|
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Quote:Um, so if a man falls into sin he can't preach again?
he man may be renewed and restored in his relationship and walk with the LORD; but as far as preaching the gospel, he is disqualified see 1 Corinthians 9: 26-27
So if a man wakes up after being asleep, shakes himself and by the Spirit mortifies the deeds of the flesh, and your saying that he is disqualified?
By what law?
| 2010/4/8 22:02|
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Well isn't it obvious? Some here have not admitted that they have had fails and shortcomings. If you're honest, (and I think we all know who this is directed to), you will find many areas of fault in your own life. I don't condemn you, I love you in the Lord.
Many have fallen but there are also many that are thankful to God that those didn't stay down. Because now many more have been Saved. We are able ministers - that makes us all unqualified to "preach" after even just one ugly thought that we could do nothing to prevent from happening. Right?
I tried to give it before but I guess I failed. On the second post here it ought to clearly strike the thought that if it wasn't for the failure, there would be no greater understanding of the Cross of Christ. What? do we try to sanctify ourselves in the flesh now after first getting Saved? How you accepted Christ, so walk ye in...
Tune to www.jsm.org and watch the broadcast. And FIND something wrong with the doctrine. Bro Swaggart and the pastors with him at the Church have been seeing Churches left and right accept the message of the Cross and get blessed by that. That's like, what is walking in the Spirit? Is it living perfectly and never making any sin? I challenge us on the forum, find that out. It's really very simple if you understand Faith and Grace.
go to JSM.ORG
| 2010/4/8 22:15||Profile|
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Quote:Peter fell from grace when he showed partiality towards the gentiles. He lived a double life to which Paul came face to face with Peter and told him that he was the blame for this. Peter was in the public eye.
So we see that a man must be above reproach and have a good reputation with those outside of the church. Brother Jimmy is disqualified on both counts. These men are definitely seen as Christian leaders, whether it is Jimmy Swaggart or Billy Graham or anyone else with a high public profile. Once that profile is tarnished in the eyes of the public, then that man must step down and away from the public. For it is for Christ's sake that we share the Gospel, it is for the name of Jesus that we live and share. If something was to take away from that, then the right thing to do, and I believe scripturally, is to retire to private life. If I remember correctly, brother Swaggart refused to be disciplined?
Is the God of the New Testament the same as the God of the Old? Is there more mercy shown under that Old Covenant than the New?
God would have us show mercy than what the written word says. He said, "I want mercy not sacrifice". Mercy changes the whole message.
When Joseph found out that Mary was pregnant, he could have spoken publicly about her and she would have been stoned, but it says that he was a just man, he denied the law and showed mercy.
God could have demanded David and Bathsheba to be stone according to the law, but God showed mercy toward David and others instead were killed for him. God denied His own law.
God told a prophet to take a harlot and to go in unto her and have children. It was unlawful to do such things, but God commanded him and he did it. God denied His own law.
And we say things like, "Scripturally" he is disqualified?
Scripturally David should have been disqualified from being King of Israel. There was no excuse for what he did, none whatsoever. He took a man's wife, kills the husband. The law says, Leviticus 20:10.
And we live under a "BETTER COVENANT', and we have the audacity to say, "Scripturally" he is disqualified?
Samson lost the anointing when his head was shaven. His anointing was wrapped up in the length of his locks. But the anointing grew back and he accomplished more in the latter end than his beginning. And we say "SCRIPTURALLY" he is disqualified?
And a greater than Samson is here.
There is not enough scripture that can be mustered up to convince me that God has lost the power to enable man who has fallen into sin and to make him more of a testimony despite his checkered past.
If we don't have mercy, our scripture is dead.
| 2010/4/8 22:35|
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I don't know if Swaggart has ever truly repented for what happened back when I was but a child. But 1 Tim 3 does indeed teach an elder is to be one who is above reproach. But that doesn't mean they have been above reproach all their Christian life. What 1 Tim 3 emphasizes is that whoever serves as an elder or deacon be men who have first been tested, and having been tested, proved.
I believe men such as Swaggart can find redemption, and again be above reproach in his Christian life, even if he fell in deep sin 30 years ago, and yes, even serve again as a pastor one day. Christ came to take away our reproaches and sin. To say that such men can never serve as an elder again, even should they prove themselves through living a life that is above reproach, is to show a very retarded understanding of God's grace and mercy.
But let me stress, these men must be tested before they serve again in that capacity.
| 2010/4/8 22:49||Profile|
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Quote:Wouldn't you refuse the AoG corrections? I would, most of them are foolish psychological jargon.
As great an example this is for God's restoration, Brother Swaggart refused correction, King David however cried for I believe 7 days straight begging for God's anointing and presence not to leave him.
Instead (if you want to believe it) he would tell you that the Lord told him to have two prayer meetings every single day. To which he would tell you that to him that was a hard thing to do, one yes, but two? God promised to show him what was missing in his ministry and life. He did what the Lord told him to do. For nine months he earnestly prayed until he received the answer to which God promised. It changed him, his ministry and all that cared to listen. I cared to listen and wanted to know more about what the cross of Jesus Christ was all about. The "message of the cross" to which he describes is the message for this day and hour.
Anyone who is struggling with sin, should hear what he has to say, it will help you understand your relationship with Jesus Christ and that cross to which He died on and our relationship to that cross, for that is where our victory lies.
| 2010/4/8 22:56|