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carly49
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Joined: 2004/10/3
Posts: 25
Ontario

 Why No Redemption For Satan

I heard a sermon recently and thought I would write on it. WHY IS THERE NO REDEMPTION FOR SATAN? God created him a beautiful angel! When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, sin came into the world. Did Eve eat of the fruit by her own doing? They both were perfectly created by God, and were perfect. No she didn't by herself eat of the fruit. She was tempted! Then instead of saying NO to the tempter, she did eat and gave also to her husband, and he ate, thus sin. WE, TOO, HAVE A TEMPTER and so God sent His only son Jesus to Die on the cross for our sin. But, satan DID NOT have a tempter, he chose to think himself higher than his creator, therefore, was cast out of heaven and many angels followed him which are now known as demons.


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Carole Russell

 2004/10/13 20:02Profile
Gideons
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Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

 Re: Why No Redemption For Satan

Yes, we were tricked by Satan and that's why we have this wonderful gift of repentance (because we were tricked and God is graciously giving a chance at redemption through the blood of Jesus). Thank God!


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Ed Pugh

 2004/10/13 20:49Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re: Why No Redemption For Satan

Hey Carly,

Here is what Norman Geislar has to say about the fall of Angels:

[b]Angels do not change in nature[/b]

Also, angels apparently have a fixed nature from the moment of their creation; angels do not change--unlike human beings, they do not grow old. They have no age, nor do they undergo any other kind of change. They have no accidents(characteristics not essential to them); hence, then cannot change accidently. The only change they can undergo is creation or annihilation by God, since, like all creatures, they exist only because God holds them in existence (Col. 1:17).

[b]Angels are irredeemable[/b]

Since Angels cannot change, they are fixed in their nature; hence, once an angel sins, he is doomed forever (2Peter 2:4;Jude 6). Indeed, the Bible says explicitly that Christ did not die to redeem angels, "for surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants" (Heb. 2:16). Those angels who sinned are never called upon to repent, nor can they be. The Cross is never presented as a means of their salvation, but only of their condemnation, for Jesus, "having disarmed the powers and authorities...made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross" (Col. 2:15).

Like all of God's rational and moral creatures, angels were given a choice. And, like humans at death (Heb. 9:27), once they have made their final choice, it is forever too late. Since they cannot change by nature, once angels make their decision, it is final and they know it (Matt. 8:29).

[b]Regarding the justice of Angelic condemnation[/b]

It seems unfair to some that humans were given an opportunity for redemption after they fell, while angels were not. Why did God not offer salvation for them as well?

[b]Response[/b]

In response to this question, several things are noteworthy.
First, angles, like human beings, have a choice in their destiny. They freely chose to rebel against God: they were not forced to do so. They were not doomed against their will.
Second, like human beings, angels were only doomed after their final choice--the only difference is that their first choice was also their final one. Humans too have a cut-off point, for "Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment"(Heb. 9:27).
Third, the very nature of angels makes their first choice also their last one, for they are created simple beings. Hence, once angels make a choice to serve or rebel against God, it is permanent (one way or the other), just as once humans make their final choice (by death), it is forever (one way or the other).
Fourth, unlike human beings (Acts 17:30;2Peter 3:9), angels are never called on to repent.

In short, what is a lifetime for us is an instant for an angel. Once their mind is made up (by free choice), it is permanent. Since by nature angels cannot change, there is no possibility of redemption for them. God knowing this, had no need to provide salvation for them; hence, the Cross pronounces their condemnation but does not provide their salvation.

Norman Geislar, Systematic Theology Vol.2 pp. 487-88; 498

Also, in my opinion, what makes us redeemable as opposed to agels is that we have something in us that is redeemable, that being the image of God. Only man is said to be made in God's image. However, this is just speculation, because there is a lot we are not told in the Bible on this subject. But, knowing the character of God, if it were possible to redeem agels, He would have.


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/10/13 23:46Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: no time to repent?

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deu 29:29 KJV)

He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him. (Dan 2:22 KJV)

The world of men and that of angels intersect and all we know about angels comes from the tiny intersection. Man, it appears, has always been fascinated by angels; sometimes to man's great danger: Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,(Col 2:18 KJV).

Quote:
Also, angels apparently have a fixed nature from the moment of their creation; angels do not change--unlike human beings, they do not grow old. They have no age, nor do they undergo any other kind of change. They have no accidents(characteristics not essential to them); hence, then cannot change accidently. The only change they can undergo is creation or annihilation by God, since, like all creatures, they exist only because God holds them in existence (Col. 1:17).

Like all of God's rational and moral creatures, angels were given a choice. And, like humans at death (Heb. 9:27), once they have made their final choice, it is forever too late. Since they cannot change by nature, once angels make their decision, it is final and they know it (Matt. 8:29).

This needs some qualification, I think. Does it mean that God created 'rebellious angels'? or did they change? Perhaps he wants to say 'they cannot be changed'. That they have changed is, I think, obvious. Did their 'decision' not change them?

Quote:
Yes, we were tricked by Satan and that's why we have this wonderful gift of repentance (because we were tricked and God is graciously giving a chance at redemption through the blood of Jesus). Thank God!

This needs a little tweaking too, I think. It is the testimony of scripture that Eve was deceived and the implication is that Adam sinned with his eyes wide open;
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1Ti 2:14 KJV)
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2Co 11:3 KJV)

But I do think it likely that Norman Geislar is on the right track when he speaks about the their choice being 'forever too late'. Angels are spirit, pure spirit, and we who are spirit/body creatures experience time in a completely different way to angels. Isaiah heard some 'angels' worshipping God. 700 hundred years later John heard them still worshipping with the same words. Had the angels been worshipping for 700 years or is it the same 'spirit' moment?

There is an interesting verse in the Revelation relating to a false prophetess; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. (Rev 2:21 NASB) God gave her a gift of time. The word 'time' is chronos; a space of time. For mankind time is a gift. It gives men 'time to repent'. Time is essential for process. It seems that angels, being spirits, do not have the gift of time, and consequently for them, literally, there is no time to repent.

If Adam sinned 'with his eyes wide open' how much more the angels? Angels have knowledge that is completely beyong our human experience; But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Mar 13:32 KJV) Their fall is not fully recorded in the Bible. All that we know comes from that narrow intersection of their world with ours. Why did God not redeem them? Well we know that part of the price of redemption was that the redeemer had to be a goel (kinsman-redeemer). Christ took hold of human nature, but never angelic nature. For indeed He does not take hold of angels, "but He takes hold of" "the seed of Abraham."(Heb 2:16 LITV)

Of the doctrine of angels, even more than in most other areas, we have to confess 'we know in part'.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/10/14 5:19Profile
Spitfire
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Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re:

This is an interesting discussion about fallen angels. Something I thought of as I was reading it: Sin entered the world through the one man, Adam. Thus, from that moment on, all mankind was born into sin. In other words, it isn't so much my sins that Christ died for, but sinful human nature. I can't help the fact that I was born in sin. I wasn't given a choice about that. All of the angels did not fall as a result of one angel's sin, each one had a choice. They were not born in sin, as we are. Just a thought.

 2004/10/14 6:44Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
This is an interesting discussion about fallen angels. Something I thought of as I was reading it: Sin entered the world through the one man, Adam. Thus, from that moment on, all mankind was born into sin. In other words, it isn't so much my sins that Christ died for, but sinful human nature. I can't help the fact that I was born in sin. I wasn't given a choice about that. All of the angels did not fall as a result of one angel's sin, each one had a choice. They were not born in sin, as we are. Just a thought.


...and it's a good thought. However, Christ did die 'for' our individual sins. Bible students usually distinguish between Sin (the Adamic disposition in the whole race) and sins (my personal transgressions). Christ's death makes provision for both; the first must have its power made powerless, the second needs forgiveness.

This whole area has had some attention here previously if you want to follow it through. Click here.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/10/14 7:50Profile
Gideons
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Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

 Re:

Thanks for the correction Ron. :-D

Even though Adam was not deceived, God still has given us this gift of repentance. It's amazing how good God is.


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Ed Pugh

 2004/10/14 8:04Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If Adam sinned 'with his eyes wide open' how much more the angels? Angels have knowledge that is completely beyong our human experience;



To whom much is given much is required. The 'light' that the angels apparently sinned with (in) seems to be such that there is no sacrifice for their sins. They who despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses- what are we to make of created free moral agents who sin with such a full knowledge of God as did the fallen angels? Angels that have seen Him high and exalted and his train filling the Temple. Who have watched the pillars of the doorpost shake at his voice. So much more we could say here; but suffice it to say that there seems to be a point of no return in the amount of light that they received to which there was no redemption. As humans we have known God by the hearing of the ear, and the creation, law on our hearts, etc., but the angels always knew Him face to face.

Think of the passage in Hebrews that deals with tasting of the good word of God and the powers of the world to come, etc., and it becomes quite clear that the progression of revelation brings great accountability and the fallen angels are in a place to which no redemption must have been offered- though they desired (epithumia) or "turned their hearts" to look into it. Think of the contrast- men lust (epithumia) or 'turn their hearts' to look into sin- and angels 'turn their hearts' to look into redemption. They followed Lucifers forbidden desire to 'look into' being like the Most High God; and yet they are permanently left to 'look into' being like man- with an unattainable desire.

My soul, what an argument ariseth out of this view, of the angels of light being inquisitive about man's redemption, to stir thee up to the same most blessed contemplation! If in the apprehension of those intelligent and exalted beings of light, the subject is so glorious, what ought it to be to thee? If, as the words represent, they fix their closest attention, and are lost in admiration, wonder, love, and praise; how is it that thou, who art so deeply interested in the blissful theme, shouldest forget it, as thou dost for hours together, and, even when thou thinkest of it, contemplate it so very coolly? Oh for grace more and more to study Jesus and his love, Jesus and his grace, Jesus and his great salvation! - ROBERT HAWKER (1753-1827)

How pitiful that we would be tempted with sin. Oh what wretchedness. Oh my hatred of such a thing-- sin. How could it ever had been what it has been and do what it has done?

God Bless,


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/10/14 8:26Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Quote:
This needs some qualification, I think. Does it mean that God created 'rebellious angels'? or did they change? Perhaps he wants to say 'they cannot be changed'. That they have changed is, I think, obvious. Did their 'decision' not change them?



In the interest of space I only offered his writings on their fall. His conjecture is that apparently they were given a choice sometime very early in their creation as to whether they would obey or rebel against God. This decision was final.

As I said in the end of my last post on this subject, we are not given the complete story on the fall of angels. We should use caution when exploring this topic and not develope doctrines on what, at best, is speculation.

What we don't know comprehensively:

Why angels are not redeemed.

What we do know comprehensively:(in the sense that much more is revealed)

The Character and attributes of God, in that He is just in condeming the angels who fell, and that His love is such that if it were possible He would have provided for their redemption.

In other words, we don't know the whole story behind the fall of angels, but we know enough about our God to trust His decision.


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/10/14 11:00Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
This needs some qualification, I think. Does it mean that God created 'rebellious angels'? or did they change? Perhaps he wants to say 'they cannot be changed'. That they have changed is, I think, obvious. Did their 'decision' not change them?



I thought of this question also when I read the post by Dr. Geisler.


Quote:
As I said in the end of my last post on this subject, we are not given the complete story on the fall of angels. We should use caution when exploring this topic and not develope doctrines on what, at best, is speculation.



This is true. It would be impossible to know with any real certainty all the reasons. I believe what we can do, as opposed to forming any real concrete doctrines, is realize that whatever their condition now and before and the decisions they made leveled the vengeance of eternal fire upon their heads and created the need for hell to be created. Jude 6,7 tells us that their judgments (which we really did not need to know unless God wanted us to learn from it) are set forth as an example of the danger of sinning in great light.

I'm not suggesting that ignorance is bliss, but there is an accountability that comes with knowing our Lords will. the greater the depth of that knowledge the greater the offence when it is not performed. Many stripes await the fallen angels as an example to us, just like Israel who fell in the wilderness, that we should take heed to the revelation of God to us as to respond in any other way than obedience is rebellion and is the opposite of faith.

God Bless,


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/10/14 11:39Profile





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