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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sin or Christ

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DirkW
Member



Joined: 2007/11/16
Posts: 88
Netherlands

 Sin or Christ

questions brothers in Christ...

1. Are we to preach over sin or are we to preach over Christ? Christ took all sin and is a Saviour. If we see Christ we see our own sinfullness or if we see our sinfulness we see we need Christ... Anyone got some good answers?

2. What is practical holiness and how does it work? How do we do this? Is it a fruit or à work. And if it is à fruit it cant be à work or...?

3. Does God ever communicate guilt to Born again Christians? To His children? Or how does He communicate if there is sin in someones life?

I would be grateful if you can help me with this and do this on à scriptural basis. May God keep our hearts set apart for His glory.


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Dirk

 2010/3/20 20:13Profile
DirkW
Member



Joined: 2007/11/16
Posts: 88
Netherlands

 Re: Sin or Christ

Anyone...


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Dirk

 2010/3/22 17:26Profile
sojourner7
Member



Joined: 2007/6/27
Posts: 1573
Omaha, NE

 Re: Sin or Christ

Preach Christ and Him crucified, buried, and risen
from the grave and death!! HE is a living, real,
true Savior!!

Holiness is a new creation and a new nature; the
very nature of GOD implanted by the Holy Spirit.
Holiness is also a practice of keeping Christ's
teachings and following them!! It is the work
of the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ and renew
our hearts, lives, and minds!!

GOD will convict by His truth and will show us
where we are wrong and where we have gone astray.
The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, righteousness
of GOD, and of judgment to come!!


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Martin G. Smith

 2010/3/22 17:37Profile
DirkW
Member



Joined: 2007/11/16
Posts: 88
Netherlands

 Re:

Thanks, but could you be some more specific on my questions...?
For example you say the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, in that text is says it of the unbeliever, not of the believer. So to get back on my question...the believer...? Etc

Any more reactions brothers and sisters? I think it's interesting theology matters and would like to hear your opinions and visions upon these questions.


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Dirk

 2010/3/22 17:45Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1987
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Sin or Christ

Dirk:

Read this post a few days ago but I did not have time to really sit down and give you my opinion. I have a few minutes, so I will try to give my partial input anyway. These questions are not quickly addressed.

1. I think there is little to be gained by preaching over sin in most cases. The average person already knows he is in sin. He does not need to be convinced of that fact. He needs to hear the good news, the gospel, that the penalty he owes for his sin has been dealt with in the person of Jesus Christ and that he can be set free from the wrath that his sin has brought upon him by the free gift of the grace of God. This does not mean we don't preach repentance. When you say, "preach over sin", I am assuming by the context that you mean preaching that basically says, "because you all are doing x, y, and z, you are sinning and you are going to hell. Repent and quit doing x, y, and z." This produces people who attempt to wash the outside of the pot by their own efforts and engenders a sense of self righteousness in those who are better at not doing x and y and z. Paul showed the legalistic jews that they were condemned under sin like the gentiles in the first part of Romans, but he was dealing with people who were going about trying to establish their own righteousness and were convinced they were OK when in fact they were not. When dealing with the gentiles to whom Paul was called he preached the grace of God. See Acts 20:24.

2. I believe practical holiness to be neither more nor less than simple obedience. It is a fruit of our love for Christ borne out of our relationship with Him. If I as a sinner seek to try to be holy in God's eyes by doing good works, I fail. My good works are counted as unrighteousness and are unholy. Self righteousness is as filthy rags in God's eyes, though they be what we might call "good" works. If I as a born again man seek to obey the Lord in all I do, it is a holy thing. It is holiness. Romans 6:19 says that if I am a servant to righteousness, holiness will be the fruit. This is not to say I don't have to put any effort into it. There are times I desire to obey the Word of the Lord, but my flesh is still unrenewed and I have to make a choice that seems difficult. I often have to fast so that my flesh can be put down and my spirit have ascendancy. If we obey the word of God and the Holy Spirit's dealing in our life, that obedience is holiness.

3. I don't believe God ever communicates guilt. I do believe He convicts us of sin. There is a difference. Guilt is a legal term really. It implies that there is a crime for which we are now condemned or found guilty and now must suffer the penalty. Christ bore my penalty. I have been delivered from the wrath of God. When I do fall short in some area, God gently deals with me and shows me that what I have done is not pleasing to Him. This causes me to run to Him in repentance and embrace Him. Guilt or condemnation cause me to want to hide from Him, and are not from Him. Satan can condemn us and lay on us all sorts of guilt. It is like this. He tempts us to sin and then calls us a dirty rotten sinner whom God does not like. It is a lie. God deals with us and draws us to Himself. The same thing happens to me when I find something in the Word I was ignorant of and had been doing or not doing that displeases God. I am drawn to bring that thing before the Lord in repentance. God does not pronounce judgment on me over that thing.

Hope that helps.

Travis


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Travis

 2010/3/23 15:37Profile
hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re: Sin or Christ

Dirk,

I like what Travis wrote, except for the answer to the first question. I think that there are many young carnal "Christians" out there who do not know that much of their lifestyle is sin. I have prayed recently that the Lord would put a "word" in my mouth and that "word" has been holiness unto the Lord. I feel that holiness is being able to say that we love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. If we do that we won't need anyone to preach sin to us as we'll be convicted of it soon after committing it. The problem is that most young people who have grown up in American churches have virtually no clue what it means to put the Lord first and what the fruit of that is or isn't. I'm sure Europe is much the same way.

I believe it was Spurgeon who said, and this is a rough paraphrase of whoever actually said it, "Pick your text, and then make a b-line for the Cross." As far as preaching and the first question, the answer would have to be yes, and often at the same time.


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Matt Smith

 2010/3/23 21:32Profile









 Re: Sin or Christ

1. Read through Acts. Plenty of examples there. Look at Paul's letters, and follow Jesus' example:

a.) repent-give up and rely on God instead of yourself> because all will be judged (changing your mind)
b.) believe-be converted in your ways> because your life will then change (changing your actions)
c.) The kingdom of God is near you
(to the extent that we recognize how sinful we are, to the same extent we will rest our confidence (aka:faith) in Jesus. If you do not recognize your need, you will not look for a solution.)
Rom. 10:13-14


2. Practical Holiness?
MT. 10:25
Mt. 10:38-39
Mt. 16:24-27
Mk. 8:34-38
Mk. 10:21
Lk. 14:33
Lk. 14:26-27
Lk. 9:23-26
Jn. 14:15,21
Jn. 14:23-24
Jn. 15:3-5
Jn. 15:12-13
Is it a fruit or a work? BOTH
Jn 6:28-29

3. Communicating Guilt? No. Guilt is our own conscience.
Guilt results from either our own mind and/or the Holy
Spirit convincing us of sin. (see Rom. 7:22-23 &
Jn. 16:7-8)
Sin in "someone's" life? YES
Jesus stated the fact that "out of the abundance of the
heart the mouth speaks" and "where a man's treasure is,
there his heart will also be."
(most people give themselves away just in word or deed,
however, there are special cases of God's direct revelation
through a word of knowledge. There are many examples of
this in the prophets of the Old Testament. There are also
cases of this in the N. T. (my favorite being Acts 5:1-10)

In any instance, God does not show you such things without reason.

1st consider yourself Mt. 7:1-5
Rom. 2:1-3
Jas. 4:11-12. Is the noted sin something also in your own life? It may be so in principle and not neccessarily a certain action (read further into Romans 2 and you will catch the gist of this-Jas. 2:8-13 also.
2nd, if there is no profit towards restoration or reconciliation, it is a point for intercessory prayer, for both the party recognized sinning and the recognizer of that sin.
3rd, consider Jas 5:19-20 ...and you will do well meditating on Gal. 5:13-6:10.

If you have no direct revelation, like Peter in Acts 5, odds are it is a matter of prayer and considering yourself whether you are being judgemental and condemning yourself in the process.

Sin in your own life? consider the part labeled 1st above^.
If you see sin in another's life, more than likely, you have got it worse.

The Word will purify you. Jn. 17:17
Jesus is the living Word of God. Heb. 4:12-13
Rev. 19:13

Focus on Jesus and not on your sin.

Focus on your sin is focus on you, and you cannot look two directions at once.

Focus on Jesus and you will become like Him: I Cor.1:30-31

 2010/3/24 0:39
selahsue
Member



Joined: 2009/9/12
Posts: 7


 Re:

Dirk,

Have you listened to Paul Washer - Practical Holiness?

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=16397&commentView=itemComments

Here it is in Dutch! http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=715082051152

 2010/3/24 16:00Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1987
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

hoohoou,

I would have to agree with the entirety of the first paragraph you wrote, but not with the last statement. Here I guess is why. Romans 6:19 shows us that holiness is the natural fruit borne out of righteousness through faith in the grace of God. It is not preaching on sin that teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, but the grace of God, Titus 2:11-12.

If I am preaching to the lost, I need to tell them of the grace of God that has been poured out in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for their sins so that they can be saved from the wrath and judgment that their sin is bringing upon them. If they are adamant that they have no sin, I can use the law for it's rightful purpose, to demonstrate to them that according to God's standard they are sinners and lost. But once they realize their lost condition, it is only death to them unless they are led to a knowledge of the solution to that condition. What I do not need to do is renumerate to them all of their actions and denounce all of them as sin. This will be unfruitful. It is the kindness and love of God that brought us to repentance. Titus 3:1-7, Romans 2:4. We love Him because He first loved us.

If I am preaching or teaching to the born again, there is a place for teaching practical holiness. Paul gave us numerous examples of this. He admonished us to put to death or mortify works in our members that were not works unto holiness, and he mentioned them specifically. But this was a small percentage of his teaching, and was given in specific instances. As a believer, I have the Word of God and the inner leading of the Holy Spirit. If I am seeking Him with my whole heart, He will reveal to me the practical things that I need to do in my life. I will bear the fruit of holiness as I obey Him. After all, holiness is really neither more nor less than obedience to the word of the Lord that comes out of relationship and love for him is it not? If a believer is not seeking God with his whole heart and is instead choosing to appease his flesh, no amount of browbeating about sin is going to change that.

If an unbeliever sitting in a church hears continually that to be pleasing to God he must stop committing a laundry list of sins, he may go out in his own flesh and try to live holy, hoping to please God. But, all he is building is self-righteousness which is in God's eyes as filthy rags. All of his self motivated acts, however morally or socially good, are acts of ungodliness and unrighteousness because they are of the flesh and are an attempt as self righteousness. He needs to hear that the only way he can be righteous is through the sacrifice of Christ.

When a man is born again, he needs to be taught how to live and walk in the spirit rather than the flesh. Paul dealt with this extensively in the book of Galatians. These people accepted that they could only be save by grace but tried to place themselves back under the law as they walked out their Christian life. They tried to be made perfect by turning to enumerating the things that God saw as sin and trying to make sure they avoided those things, thinking that this external holiness was the way to further relationship with God. Not so. Paul calls them bewitched, grossly deceived. Outward holiness, or the avoidance of actions of sin, can only be the outflow of inward holiness which is the commitment to obeying the Savior whom we love with all our heart mind and strength.

So while there are times and places for us to preach and teach about specific, practical holiness, the main thrust of a pastor or churches ministry should not consist of such. I sat with a group of young men last night whom I have been teaching. We have spent five weeks building a foundation of walking in the Spirit. But only last night did we begin to talk about actions or works of the flesh that Paul talked about. We had to have the foundation of relationship and reliance on the power of the Holy Spirit. We will not major on the works of the flesh. We will major on the life of Christ in us which yields the fruit of righteousness naturally.

Hope that clarifies what I was trying to say in the post. I am all for holiness. I am all for not sinning. But it must come as a fruit of the root of righteousness. It simply does not work the other way. Some of the conventional religious wisdom has been that if we show people how terribly sinful they are that they will be driven to God. That is yoke of bondage that we are not to be entangled again with. It is a law mentality. The law showed us how rotten we were. The body needs to awake to righteousness and sin not. If we see how truly righteous we have been made by the blood of Christ, possessing the very same righteousness that God possesses, see 2 Cor. 5:21, then we are to yield ourselves to that righteousness just as we used to yield ourselves servants to sin. The resulting fruit will be holiness.

Travis.


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Travis

 2010/3/24 17:03Profile
DirkW
Member



Joined: 2007/11/16
Posts: 88
Netherlands

 Re:

Thanks everybody these are all usefull replies that I can use for study. I will also listen to practical holiness of washer, hope that also helps. I will be following this posts for more replies and will ask questions if they pop up :).

Thanks brothers and sisters


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Dirk

 2010/3/24 17:30Profile





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