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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1988
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Even though your focus is not on sin, the focus of the scriptures is on sin firstly by convicting of it and then by showing how holiness is achieved.



Brenda: It is true that when we sin God will chastise us, correct us, through His word. John 15, 2 Tim. 3, etc. But I don't believe this is the focus of the NT, nor the focus of the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives. The gospel is the good news that we are saved from the wrath of God by the atoning work of Jesus Christ. The NT focuses more on how we live a life of victory through the work of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. I also don't believe holiness a thing to be achieved. It is the fruit borne by a spirit that is made righteous by the blood of the lamb and a life that has been surrendered to God. It is not, "If you do these things...then you will achieve holiness", but rather as Romans 6:22 says we have our fruit unto holiness. Holiness is the natural byproduct of righteousness and consecration of our lives to the Lord.

The remainder of your post summed it up very well. I say AMEN! You put it very well.

Blessings

Travis


_________________
Travis

 2010/3/13 8:25Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
twayneb said:
As I have been reading these posts, some observations and thoughts come to mind.

The focus of the discussion seems to be sin, and our ability to refrain from it. It is almost as if the assumption is made that sin is the issue, and that each new infraction must be "cleared from the books" so to speak or the person who committed the infraction will receive judgment for it either now, or more probably in eternity

That is not it.
Each new infraction must be cleared of because sin sets you at odds with God. Even though you still have eternal life (your still saved) your relationship with God is stressed.

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It seems then that working off of this assumption we then must decide if it is only intentional sins, or if accidental sins as well are held to our account by God

Sin is not held to our account if we truly are undrr the blood, sin is already delt with on the cross. However, you must not continue to sin as you're abele to stop.

Example:
A marriage is as our relationship With God.
When there is something between your spouse & you. Though you are still married, there is no peace in the house. Furthermore, the marriage relationship can not grow &/or mature; the marriage can not bear any good fruit if their is anything between the both of you.

This is the same with sin and your relationship with God. With unrepented sin, though you are still saved, your relationship with God can not grow &/or mature and you can not bear any good fruit.
That which bears thorns and briars is worthless, and is near unto cursing; whose end is to be burned (Hebrews 6:8).

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If it is only sins of intentional commission, then we are left with the question of whether one can "choose" not to sin

That is the only way for the culpablility of sin to be valid.

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If it is also accidental sin, then it seems we realize the whole argument falls apart (How could God expect us to refrain from that which happens without our decision?) and so we must not consider that possibility.

This is correct. No one can answer this question honestly sayng that God can expect us to refrain from that which happens without our decision.

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What if the answer is not A, is not B, but is C... None of the above?

Let me give you a story from personal experience to illustrate. As a young boy, I had a very hyper and annoying personality. Others saw me coming and did their best to avoid me. I delighted in pestering people, not out of meanness, but out of a lack of understanding that people did not like to always be pestered. I did not know how to relate to others well, and as a result suffered a great deal of rejection by them. As time went along and I carried these emotional scars with me. I was born again at 8, baptized in the Holy Spirit at 18, loved God with all my heart, and had an active and vibrant relationship with Him. I saw miraculous things occur in my life and in ministry. And yet, I still carried scars deep inside.

At the age of 33 or 34, God began to deal with this area of rejection in my life. Through His word, and through prayer and ministry of other believers, I was set free from a great deal of the pain and hurt of my childhood. This was no small thing. This fear of rejection had immobilized me spiritually and in ministry in a number of significant ways.

About a year ago, as I was preparing to help minister in a conference, these issues once again came to the front. I pulled some mature leaders aside just before the meeting and told them that I was really battling some things, and could they pray with me for a bit. We went aside into another room and before long I was weeping before them as the pain of this fear and these memories continued to come out of my life. I told them the things I had been thinking about myself. I had been telling myself I was not able to do what I knew God had called me to do. I had been proclaiming to myself that I was a loser, that I did not see how God could use me, etc. Everything I said was in direct contradiction to what the Word of God said about me

Didn't you know that you were contradicting the Word of God? Was this intentional?

If it wasn't, then it was not held against you, you were not sinning subjuctivly sinning (though it was objectively sin), it was only a personality flaw which God needed to perfect.

God looks at the heart. If you did not mean to contradict the Word of God, then your heart wad innocent, free from guilt.

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I was in a great deal of self-focus (even self debasement can be pride as your focus is on you and not on God).

All mankind will be and are judged by what they know & of their ability. No one will be judgment according to what they don't know & to what they can't do.

If all you knew to do was be in self-focus &/or self debasement, then how are you expected (by God or anyone) to do anything else untill you learned otherwise?

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A mature leader looked at me and said, "I am not at all trying to belittle what you have been saying, but I must say something to you. You must accept that your attitude about yourself is self-focused and the things you have been proclaiming about yourself are in direct contradiction to what the Word of God says about you. This is SIN." This is true, isn't it? Pride is sin. Self-focus is sin.

It is objectively sin, but it may not be subjuctivly which is what only matters for accountability sake.

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So I present a question. It was not by accident that I had these attitudes. I was aware that they were not Godly attitudes

The fact that you knew, therefore, this was not accidental or un-intentionla sin. You knew that they were not Godly attitudes so you were accountable, you should have repented when you learned thst they were not Godly attitudes.

Your knowledge of sin is your culpablility.

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Do I now also possess attitudes that God will yet reveal to me as sin in His eyes?

If you do, then you are only culpable when you learn of them.

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Has God ever dealt with you over issues that you were satisfied to live with, and in doing so shown you that they were sin?

Yes however, I thank God that I was not culpable to them untill I learned of them to repent of.

If one didn't know a sin was a sin, then he was innocent untill he learns it to be a sin (the conscience bearing witness). Sin is not imputed when there is no law (Romans 3:13, Romans 4:15). Your conscience is your law. When you had no conscience against it, you were then, not sinning subjuctivly even though it was sin objectively.

God looks at the heart, and the subjuctive is only what matters.

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What of your eternal state then

Depends on if you are saved or not.

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I tell you, no one can live a life in this unregenerate body

Bodies do not get born again (regenerate).

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(no one can live a life) with it's imperfectly renewed mind and simply choose never to sin again

If this is true, the inability makes one to be not culpabe. Inability is exempted from any responsibility & mandate.

However, I thank God that you are wrong. I am most thankful to God that I don't have to sin against Him. Responsibilityi have always been free not to sin, but the fact that I still chose to makes me all the more responsible nd condemned.

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One may look at an obvious outward action such as lying and say, "If I choose not to lie today, I can choose not to lie tomorrow", and that person may have total success until they die at not lying

Praise God!

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But what of the impure thought that is dwelt upon when you are alone

No one has to dwell upon impure thoughts. Therefore, they are able to never do it.

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What of the time that you knew to do good, and you failed to do it?

You could have done the good, therefore, you didn't have to sin. However, we are not always responcible to do that which we know is good.

Giving to charities are good, threfore, accordng to you, your sinning everyday that you don't give to charity.
But this is rediculous! We are only sinning when we are responsible to do the good we know to do.

Even Jesus whent to a place with many sick, but only healed one man. It was good to heal all the men in that place but Jesus didn't. according to you, Jesus sinned because He knew to do good but didn't.

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I believe the issue is not culpability. To even debate whether we are to be held responsible for our sins is superfluous

This is the basis of the matter. It is not superfluous.

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Of course we are held accountable.

How are you accountable to that which you have no control over?
I bet you won't answer this.

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The question was asked, "what is the power of sin." I believe we find the answer in 1 Cor. 15:56

1Corinth 15:56 [b]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.[/b]
Death in this verse is to be known as permanent, without resurrection as they will suffer eternally who are not “in Christ”, or not “in faith”. That which will keep mankind dead without resurrection is sin if is not dealt with by Christ.

“[b]The strength of sin is the law[/b]”, this is explained more in-depth by Paul specifically in Romans 7:13 which basically says, “Was then that which is good become death to me? God forbid. But, the commandments exist for the reason of making our unlawful affections to be evidently unlawful. It made death to be evident within me by that which is good; In other words, the commandments exist so that my unlawful affections would be evidently more wicked in contrast to the specific requirements“

However, we may also call the "power of sin" to be our own sympathy to it.

Quote:
and Romans chapters 1-8. The strength of sin is the law. The law concluded all of us under sin. The law is what caused us to be held accountable for our sin

Actually it is our knowledge of the law which holds us accountable to our sin, not just the fact of the law existing. (Romans 3:13, Romans 4:15 & Romans 2:15).
Romans 4:15

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One mentioned the ten commandments. As a born again believer with a better covenant (See the letter to the Hebrews), we are no longer under the curse of the law, including the ten commandments. We are not required to keep them to be right with God or pleasing to God

Yes we are required to keep them! We Keep them in the spirit of the law, which is love. Jesus said , if you love me, keep my commandments.

However, we only come under the curse of the law if we use it to earn God's favore & not trust in the finished work of Christ (our faith)

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We never were (required to keep [the ten commandments] to be right with God or pleasing to God)

What!?!?

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Sure, they restrained sin, but through fear of punishment.

Only if you have broken them, but if one will keep the spirit of them all through life, they will not condemn him & they would not have any fear of punishment.

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They were a ministration of death to us (See the letter to the Corinthians), condemning us and concluding us all under sin.

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter (of the law), but of the spirit (of the law): for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones...
2 Corinthians 3:6-7

The difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is that the letter relates to the outward action; the spirit relates to the motive or intention of the heart and from which the act should proceed.

The spirit of the law requires impartial goodwill or benevolence, and is all expressed in one word--love. The letter of the law requires strict adherence to every precept, it is all expressed in one word--obey.

An example, the letter of the law says, "Do not commit murder!" but the spirit of the law says, ‘‘Anyone who is angry with his brother without cause shall be liable to Judgment.'' (Matthew 5:21-22)
The spirit requires that certain conditions to be examined in their proper place.

The letter of the law is unyielding and sentences “guilty” all violators of its precepts, without regard to the purpose of the violation. Just as the speed limit is 55 mph and one exceeds the limit, the law says, ''guilty''. The spirit of the law, on the other hand, sees the purpose of the excess speed for an emergency and says, ''keep speeding until purpose is met.
Furthermore, when speeding for the purpose of an emergency, the spirit of the law is not broken, but fulfilled

The law concluded us all under sin because we did not keep it. The law is the proof which God uses against us to concluding us all under sin.

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But Christ set us free from the curse of the law

Now your contradicting yourself.
First you say, "We are not required to keep the law to be right with God or pleasing to God." Now you say, "Christ set us free from the curse of the law."

How are we under the curse of the law if we are not required to keep the law to be right with God?

What did He set us free from if we are not required to keep them to be right with God or pleasing to God?

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What was this curse? Cursed is everyone who does not continue in ALL things that are written in the law (Gal. 3:10). It was the curse of penalty. It was the curse of enduring the wrath of God for our sins

Now your missing the whole message and adding to it.

The Word says "Cursed is everyone who does not CONTINUE in ALL things that are written in the law"
This means that the curse is we must continue in all things that are written in the law if we only follow the law to earn favore with God.

But you say that it was the curse of enduring the wrath of God for our sins.

There is two curses you are mixing together. The curse of sin & the curse of the law.

I already said what the curse of the law is, but curse of sin is death.

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We are set free from that curse by the blood of Jesus. He became a curse for us. He became sin for us so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. I was accountable for my sin

How were you accountable for sin if you couldn't help it?
How were you accountable for sin if sin was imposible to avoide, inevitable?

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and Jesus provided the way by which that accountability could be removed. You see, sin is simply not the issue anymore. Look carefully at the book of Hebrews. You will find that if one EVER turns back on salvation, he or she can NEVER be born again, again. If I commit a sin, I don't lose my salvation My spirit does not immediately become dead once again to God and in need of regeneration again.

True, but why is there still a need to repent?

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Hebrews says I am perfected forever.

How so if you can't stop sinning?

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(Hebrews says I am perfected forever.) Where? In my body? Hardly.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

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(Hebrews says I am perfected forever.) In my soul realm (my mind and emotions)? No.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and [b]soul and body[/b] be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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But in my spirit I am perfected. Recall that the word talks about the spirits of just men made perfect. Hebrews 12:23.

This really bothers some people. They have a really hard time accepting this because it means all their good works and all of their avoidance of sin suddenly earns them nothing

The avoidance of sin is not to earn anything, ut it is bause we live God.
We don't avoide sinning against our spouse to earn their love or anything, but we avoide sinning against our spouse because we love them.

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They cannot see how it can be so. Surely I must pay for my transgressions. NO, that is the point of the cross.

So is sin OK? NO. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. We are dead to sin. Sin is deadly

This is a selfish reason not to sin, it being deadly. It's not because we don't wat to die, bt because it hurts te One we love.

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To willfully sin one must harden his heart against the ministry of the Holy Spirit

To willfully sin one must give in to the desires of the flesh which are known to be unlawful.
To willfully sin one only needs to neglect anything which would keep him from sin. This is an easy thing to do.

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Continual hardening of heart will cause you to walk away from the faith that you once had. It will destroy you. But not because it is a "new" infraction that has not been paid for yet. Rather because to do so causes me to take one step closer to turning away from my salvation. To cease to trust God for forgiveness and salvation.

Remember the God told David that he would remember our sins no more, that He would one day write His laws on our heart. If I obey the Spirit, the letter no longer applies to me. I will live more holy on accident walking in God's grace than I ever did on purpose by trying to keep the rules well. My Christian walk becomes an outflow rather than a regimen.

The focus of the Christian life is not, and should not be, "How can I avoid sin?" My life does not revolve around sin, or the avoidance thereof

One's life should revolve around Christ. However, there are distractions, which are not sin, or even sinful in & of themselves. These distractions may cause you to neglect your relationship with God so that you won't have the moral fortitude to deny temptation, thus fall into sin.

 2010/3/14 17:48Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
knitefall said:
To my friend Logic,

You seem to have a good amount is invested Scripture study under your belt. That is a valuable thing these last days. You have a lot of thought that certainly can be used for the Kingdom and I don't want to question your authority in the Scriptures. Might I offer something? Most posts on here that you gain involvement in seem to gravitate towards a contentious tendency

Do you think that when I post here on Sermonindex, that I do it with an contentious attitude? If so, I am sorry if that is how it seems, but it is far from the truth. The true reasons that I post the things I do is for the reasons of edification and encouragement with all godly intent. I like to encourage people as they like to do the same for me with their posting on similar subjects. I do not post for the reason of contention, but for edification. I have only been writing & posting my convictions to that which I believe; but when there are two opposing ideas, there will naturally be arguments &/or controversy which is the very definition of contention.

My writing style may be one that it is difficult to judge my attitude by. All you must do is think the best of me as I do for everyone else. Do not think that I am contentious, but always assume that I am being as civil as I know how to be as I write. Just as I always figure that everyone who posts, they do it for the same reason that I do. I never read anything into what they post but that which I understand what is being said. I don’t assume that anyone is posting in a contentious attitude; I ask you to do the same.

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I don't really see the others conducting themselves in this manner.

How long have you been reading threads here?

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But I bring this up as a kind warning. The strife is not pleasing to God and we do end up with consequences to this kind of moral sin.

It is not strife. Strife is bitter conflict, heated discussion, or antagonism. This is not what I read into any thread, but only regular disagreement. Do not read strife into it unless t is evident.

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Even if it's on a message board. I don't know if a church has been mean and nasty towards you or if there is another circumstance we here do not know about.

There is nothing wrong, but your perspective on the matter.

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But God has me praying for you lately.

That is good, pray that I get a job.

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Whatever it is you're dealing with, don't worry, God can make it all better.

I’m not “dealing with” anything. Please don't think that I am unless I let you know.

 2010/3/14 17:50Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Krautfrau SAID:
Well said knitefall and indeed it is true, that men show their true natures when dealing with contenders.

you have miss-interpreted my "nature"; I am not being contentious, only posting what I believe among others who do the same.

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Quote:
Things which you can't control are not sin. How you react to the irritation may be a sin.
Does an itch irritate you?

Well now that is quite silly to suggest that an itch on the skin is the same as a mental annoyance, which is anger.

Irritation is irritation, is it not? The only thing that matters is how you react to it.

If you react to irritation correctly, there is no sin.

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Jesus seemed to think that we could control anger when He said we are to be as harmless as doves Matt 10:16 and He demolished the thought that only the outward actions count in the sermon on the mount when He said that anger is the same as murder.

Yes, when one is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment (Matthew 5:21-22).
However, if your cause of anger is worthy, then be angry but do not sin (Ephesians 4:26).

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My words - What you are really saying is that in theory, we have the ability of not sinning, but during your walk as a believer, you did not manage it yourself but you admit that it was not unintentional.
I meant that you say we can not sin but you yourself are not going to give a clear testimony of it.

I never said that we [b]can not sin[/b], but that we never have to; we are able no to. But I've read that you say we have to sin, because it we can't help it; sin is unavoidable, inevitable.

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Tell me, what does an unbeliever think of someone who claims they do not sin but sees such things as irritation in those who claim it and which they recognise as sin or ungraciousness towards those who oppose their doctrines?

They may know the truth that irritation is not a sin, but how one reacts to it is. Therefore, that unbeliever may see how he reacts to the irritation and see the self control.

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As for your further questions, there were certain things that I thought I could not help before the Lord showed me otherwise. Even though we cannot stop certain sins like irritation with others, they are still sins and are against the precepts of the walk in the kingdom and deliverence is needed from them.

To him who esteems anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean (Romans 14:14). If irritation is a sin to you, then it is. However, the truth says otherwise.

Do not be over scrupulous & learn what truly is a sin; you condemn yourself by the things which you think are sin.

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The power of the Lord is able to do this even though we cannot. It however is a trap to call them anything other than sin.

Reality says otherwise, sin is always controlable & a choice.

 2010/3/14 17:54Profile









 Re:

Logic

You just wasted an afternoon carpet-bombing an empty field. We already chased Procyon/Pollux/SueMarie/KrautFrau away again.

 2010/3/14 18:30
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
LoinGirder said:
You just wasted an afternoon carpet-bombing an empty field. We already chased Procyon/Pollux/SueMarie/KrautFrau away again.

Nah, I had it all on M.S. Word and was doing it all weekend.
It only took me 5 min.s to post.

 2010/3/14 18:33Profile









 Re:

Logic

Quote:
you have miss-interpreted my "nature"; I am not being contentious, only posting what I believe among others who do the same.



When two believers, not connected to each other and not part of the same in crowd pick up on how I am presenting myself, and not just ganging up together to dismiss my theology, then I take notice. You choose not to, and that is your choice but it seems to me to be a precarious position refusing to make onself answerable to the body. You did not even ask others here if they agree.

On irritation, Jesus certainly showed irritation and anger at times when His father's house was desecrated for example but when He was beaten and insulted Himself, He was like a lamb and only said 'forgive them'. If I have Christ living in me then I expect to react the same way to persecution and insults because this is how we have been told that we will be treated. I never feel irritation myself although I used to when I walked in the flesh.

 2010/3/16 9:24
JonMarie
Member



Joined: 2010/3/12
Posts: 38


 Re:

1 Peter 2:20

 2010/3/29 22:37Profile





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