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 The necessity of a second blessing for entire sanctification

I have just read this and found it helpful.


http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyctr/books/0801-0900/HDM0848.PDF

Brenda

 2010/3/10 11:59









 Re: The necessity of a second blessing for entire sanctification


Hi, I haven't read the article you linked, but here is an old thread containing a related topic, or, it might be an alternative view point.

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9249&forum=34&18]Ron Bailey - Instant Sanctification[/url]

I found myself thinking of Gen 7:16 - and the LORD shut him in - and connecting it with Eph 1:13 and Eph 4:30.

 2010/3/11 13:03









 Re:

Thanks for that link - I am listening to the sermons

Brenda

 2010/3/12 12:43









 Re: The necessity of a second blessing for entire sanctification

I've seen Wesley's teachings on entire sanctification destroy people. The teaching is the result of cherry picking proof texts and ignoring the context of all of Scripture. Not even the Apostle Peter was entirely sanctified many years into his ministry, sinning and needing to be rebuked by Paul (see the book of Galatians). Every man of God whose life is detailed in the Scriptures sinned, even Paul himself (reviling God's high priest in Acts). And John in Revelation, falling to worship an angel. This is not a license to sin, because "without holiness no man shall see the Lord". And "whoever is born of God does not keep sinning". The habitual practice of a child of God is righteousness. But there is no perfection this side of eternity. We need the BLOOD and divine pardon every day. We need to pray the Lord's prayer DAILY: forgive us our trespasses.

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 Jn 1:8)

Please read this personal testimony of a famous preacher who is now dead who was caught up in Wesleyan entire sanctification (a.k.a. sinless perfection):

[url=http://www.puregospeltruth.com/holiness-the-false-and-the-true-by-ha-ironside.html]Harry Ironside's Testimony about Entire Sanctification[/url]

Here's part two, talking about Scripture:

http://www.puregospeltruth.com/holiness-the-false-and-the-true-doctrinal.html

What's interesting to note is that John Wesley never claimed to have entered into entire sanctification. Even though he taught it many years, he never experienced it. What's that got to say about it?

On his death bed he cried out "God be merciful to me a sinner".

Do as he did but don't do as he taught.

CHRIST ALONE is OUR SANCTIFICATION, NOT OUR PRESENT STANDING OF SINLESSNESS OR WORKS BEFORE GOD.

 2010/3/12 15:11









 Re:

Thanks Josef I am already aware of this testimony.

I was very sadened by it because of the lack of correct teaching and I myself fell into this trap which is the teaching known as Higher Life or Keswick. I had the same experience of thinking I had been entirely sanctified when in fact I had only received the 'breathing on of the Spirit, which is often misunderstood as a second blessing or the final act when there is nothing further required but there is and it is the baptism of the Spirit. I too found myself unable to stop sins reappearing and fell into despair but for me the Lord came to my rescue and I did not turn away and He led me into the promised land. I am so sorry for those who turn away but unfortunately most do and fall in the wilderness. It is not the doctrine of ES that is at fault it is the false understanding of it.

Indeed we do need the blood every day and there is not a moment that we have any righteousness of our own and we can fall from this place at any time. But there is a place where we are free from sin and are no longer under the law of sin and death.

Many misinterpret the verse from 1John I will perhaps post something tomorrow to show this to those who are truly seeking the truth.

It is true that Wesley had not got to the third blessing - only the second but he had read about many others who had and many of his flock did and he wrote about them. Why he did not is not clear - it is usually because one will not pay the price required that is to deny self. I heard that he did receive it near the end but we can only guess as I believe that his writtings have been doctored.

Indeed Christ is our sanctification and it is in recieving His holiness imparted to us that we can live a crucified life.

blessings
Brenda

 2010/3/12 16:09









 Re:

Procyon/Pollux/Suemarie/KrautFrau/AKA "Anonymous" wrote:

Quote:
It is true that Wesley had not got to the third blessing -



I speak with some authority on the subject, since I am a descendent of Muttonchops Mathers, who first introduced the third blessing to Methodist theology. He later discovered the fourth blessing, which is the Baptism of Dynamite, the fifth blessing which is the Baptism of Lyddite and the sixth blessing which is the Baptism of Oxidite.

Of Keswick/Higher Life books he said, "They are fit for naught but to kindle a fire! They are printed in hell, bound by hobgoblins, proof-read by the Devil and published by the Pope!"

He was a fiery preacher, was Muttonchops Mathers. He used to beat Plymouth Brethren over the heads with his cane and broke his foot when he kicked Harry Ironside in the side.

 2010/3/12 23:30
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: The necessity of a second blessing for entire sanctification

Quote:
[size=12]I've seen Wesley's teachings on entire sanctification destroy people. The teaching is the result of cherry picking proof texts and ignoring the context of all of Scripture...

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 Jn 1:8)

...caught up in Wesleyan entire sanctification (a.k.a. sinless perfection).[/size]


You are confused, sir. Wesley neither believed nor taught the doctrine of 'sinless perfection'. What you are referring to is the Holiness Movement that sprung out of the liberal-theology of later Methodists.

Feel free to verify this yourselves by reading the man's own words. Wesley did not believe in 'sinless perfection' this side of eternity. Christian Perfection to him held an entirely different meaning.

[b]A Plain Account of Christian Perfection[/b] by John Wesley
(http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/plain_account)

Quote:
[size=12][b]Q. 11.[/b] But if all this be consistent with Christian perfection, that perfection is not freedom from all sin; seeing sin is the transgression of the law:' And the perfect transgress the very law they are under. Besides, they need the atonement of Christ; and he is the atonement of nothing but sin. Is, then, the term sinless perfection, proper?

[b]A.[/b] It is not worth disputing about. But observe in what sense the persons in question need the atonement of Christ. They do not need him to reconcile them to God afresh; for they are reconciled. They do not need him to restore the favour of God, but to continue it. He does not procure pardon for them anew, but `ever liveth to make intercession for them;' and `by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.' (Heb. 10:14.)

For want of duly considering this, some deny that they need the atonement of Christ. Indeed, exceeding few; I do not remember to have found five of them in England. Of the two, I would sooner give up perfection; but we need not give up either one or the other. The perfection I hold, `Love rejoicing evermore, praying without ceasing, and in everything giving thanks,' is well consistent with it; if any hold a perfection which is not, they must look to it.[/size]


What you will find taught is to this extent:

Quote:
[size=12]But the Apostles themselves committed sin; Peter by dissembling, Paul by his sharp contention with Barnabas. Suppose they did, will you argue thus: `If two of the Apostles once committed sin, then all other Christians, in all ages, do and must commit sin as long as they live?' Nay, God forbid we should thus speak. No necessity of sin was laid upon them; the grace of God was surely sufficient for them. And it is sufficient for us at this day.[/size]


Or, in other words, the grace of God is sufficient to keep us from sinning so long as we abide in the faith of the Son of God. This ideal cannot be denied. Therefore there is given no excuse for a Christian to sin against a wonderful Savior and His precious promises — 1 Corinthians 10:13. "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it."

Nowhere is it being argued that Christians will never sin; only that there is a way of escape with [b]every[/b] temptation! The grace of God is ever ready to deliver from every temptation so that we may sin not, even until the day of Christ Jesus; therefore, it is agreed, "no necessity of sin" is laid upon us who are indeed set free in Christ.


_________________
Jordan

 2010/3/13 1:34Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: The necessity of a second blessing for entire sanctification

Many unfortunately take the doctrine of perfection to an extreme, just as we see other doctrines go into an extreme and thus the lose the balance scripture has focusing just an some verses. But also those that do not agree often misunderstand and misrepresent others that may hold the doctrine. Myself beleieve in entire sactification, i belive christ work for me is strong enough and powerful enough to break every single sin, undo all satan managed to do against me in the garden. Have i reached a "perfect" state just as Christ was perfect? no far from it, but i press on towards perfection and knowing that scripture says when i see the

Lord then will i be like him fully, and every true believer should if healthy in their theology and relationship with the Father hate sin and strive to be free from it in every aspect of their life. In action, motive, and thought. Be free from unbelief, lovelessness etc.

Sin is never ok.... our fallen state,nature,man is never an acceptable excuse to allow sin. however great or small.

But for those who think Wesley thought sinless perfection as some others have taught it, or misunderstood his teachings. Many zealus brothers and sisters get on fire reading his sermons, books etc but they may go to far, just as some in otehr doctrines may go to far concerning other things, predestination, free will and all the rest.

But here is what Wesley believed in short and simple terms.
------
Christian Perfection

“Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus”
(Philippians 3:12)

Introduction

The teaching of Christian Perfection causes more offence among believers than any other doctrine. Why? Because many cannot tolerate the word ‘perfect.’ Those who teach it are considered to be the worst of heretics. Some warn us that it is best not to use such terminology, but does not Scripture make use of it? We cannot make room for the devil by modifying the words. In our text Paul indicates that he was not as perfect as he should be. Some who deny the idea of perfection use this as an excuse for their own ungodliness, forgetting that Paul adds, “Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded” (Philippians 3:15.)
In this sermon we will endeavour to find out in what sense a believer is not perfect, and in what sense he is perfect.

In what sense is a believer not perfect?

(1) Scripture and personal experience reveal that we are not perfect in knowledge. We may understand many wonderful truths, yet there are many areas where we verge on total ignorance. There are apparent mysteries both in the spiritual and natural world we will never fathom out. Do we fully comprehend the doctrine of the Trinity, or how Christ could empty Himself and take upon Himself human flesh? Are we able to interpret all the signs and the seasons? Do we know the exact moment of Christ’s return? We fail to understand the way God works, especially in our own generation. Without revelation we would find no answers for the many questions we have. In reality we are not perfect in knowledge.

(2) Christians are not perfect to the extent that they cannot make mistakes. Errors are the result of our limited capabilities. True, we do not err regarding the plain teaching of salvation and sanctification, but we all go astray on everyday matters. How often we have been mistaken about facts and have presented them in a false light? How many times have we misunderstood the intentions of others? Do not even the wisest of Christians disagree regarding the interpretation of some Bible text?

(3) Christians are not perfect with regards to personal infirmities or failures. We often lapse in the areas of morality, worldliness, evil speaking, and even taking God’s name in vain. By infirmities we also refer to physical problems such as slowness of understanding, muddled thoughts, and loss of memory. Do we not all have flaws in manners, speech, and personality?

(4) Every day we have to contend with many temptations. The devil constantly tries to fill our minds with his lies. The fact that we are tempted proves that we have not reached absolute perfection, for do we not give in to it? Except for our Lord Jesus Christ, because we are in the flesh, we are prone to lapses and find it easier to sin than obey God. Nevertheless, those who seek holiness are always moving to higher ground.

In what sense is a believer perfect?

We have to agree that there are several stages of growth in the spiritual life, just as there is in the natural. The apostle John writes to “little children,” “young men,” and “fathers” in the faith (1 John 2), indicating that this is true, however at no stage is ungodliness acceptable. If we are truly under grace then “sin shall not have dominion over” us (Romans 6:14.) Genuine Christians are free from outward sinful deeds … “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” (1 John 3:8-9.)
Some suggest that these verses teach that believers do not sin to the same extent as the unsaved, but what support is there anywhere in Scripture for such a view? Is this not the same as saying that Christians must sin? We agree that even the holiest of men, Abraham, Moses and David for instance, committed some terrible sins, but this does not mean that there is no victory over it. Also we ought not to measure the Christian life against the failures of men. John makes it abundantly clear that all who commit sin are of the devil (1 John 3:8), and that the child of God does not sin (1 John 3:9.) Does this not speak of the need of Christian Perfection?

To answer the question, “In what sense is a believer perfect?” we submit the following:

(1) Believers have freedom from evil and sinful thoughts. Genuine Christians do not meditate on ways to carry out wickedness, to steal, murder, or lust. Evil intentions come from within an evil heart, but if it has been cleansed through Christ’s blood the evil heart no longer exists. Whenever the devil seeks to implant evil thoughts in our minds we can use the spiritual weapons at our disposal to defeat them … “Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places” (Ephesians 6:11-12) … “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ” (2 Corinthians 10:5.)

(2) Believers have freedom from evil attitudes. The Lord Jesus Christ has called His followers to love their enemies, abusers, and persecutors. This means that they do not retaliate or seek revenge for the wrongs done against them; instead they have a forgiving spirit. Only a purified heart can contain such love as this.

(3) Believers have freedom from an evil nature. The apostle Paul states, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me” (Galatians 2:20.) Do not these words reveal that Christians have been delivered from both inward and outward sin? All true believers have had their hearts cleansed by faith, and seek to be pure and holy. They have a new inward nature that affects the outside. Instead of anger, bitterness and unforgiveness there is the spirit of meekness, gentleness, and self-control. If, as some say, we are only freed from sin at death, then does not this make death the saviour? Yes, we do allow sin into our lives, but through the Holy Spirit our consciences tell us that we must “confess our sins” so that the faithful and just Lord would “forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9.)

Conclusion
To suggest that Christ does not give us power over sin is to establish justification by works. But, sin no longer has dominion over the child of God (Romans 6:14.) We do not have to commit sin, have evil thoughts and wicked attitudes. God has created a new and clean heart within us (Ezekiel 36:25-36.

These are wonderful promises! But listen, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (2 Corinthians 7:1.) Instead of looking back to the way we were, let us look forward to what we ought to be, to the provisions won for us through the blood of Christ … “Forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before” (Philippians 3:13.)


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2010/3/13 2:00Profile









 Re:

hmmhmm

The problem with Wesley is that sometimes he seems to be teaching sinless perfection but at other times he does not. I believe that this was because he had not reached the state of sinless perfection himself but he had read the writings of others who had and was teaching from them and the scriptures they used but at times it was Higher Life doctrine that came though and this is why he was said to be inconsistent. He himself had been sanctified at Aldersgate but not entirely sanctified when he did his writing and teaching. So there is some confusion about what he meant at times. He himself was not sure whether he should teach on things that were not in his possession.

I believe that when asked if he was teaching sinless perfection and he said that he does not choose to use the term and it was not worth contending about, he was merely avoiding committing to it or getting into disputes over something that was not quite clear to him unlike the men who had written the books he so obviously endorsed.

You have seemingly quoted from Christian Perfection with this

(3) Christians are not perfect with regards to personal infirmities or failures. We often lapse in the areas of [b]morality, worldliness, evil speaking, and even taking God’s name in vain.[/b] By infirmities we also refer to physical problems such as slowness of understanding, muddled thoughts, and loss of memory. Do we not all have flaws in manners, speech, and personality?

The words I have emphasised are not in the same sermon printed on

http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/sermons/040.htm

and I trust that their sources will be reliable. Instead it says there

Quote:
4. No one, then, is so perfect in this life, as to be free from ignorance. Nor, Secondly, from mistake; which indeed is almost an unavoidable consequence of it; seeing those who "know but in part" [1 Cor. 13:12] are ever liable to err touching the things which they know not. It is true, the children of God do not mistake as to the things essential to salvation: They do not "put darkness for light, or light for darkness;" [Isa. 5:20] neither "seek death in the error of their life." [Wisdom 1:12] For they are "taught of God," and the way which he teaches them, the way of holiness, is so plain, that "the wayfaring man, though a fool, need not err therein." [Isa. 35:8] But in things unessential to salvation they do err, and that frequently. The best and wisest of men are frequently mistaken even with regard to facts; believing those things not to have been which really were, or those to have been done which were not. Or, suppose they are not mistaken as to the fact itself, they may be with regard to its circumstances; believing them, or many of them, to have been quite different from what in truth, they were. And hence cannot but arise many farther mistakes. Hence they may believe either past or present actions which were or are evil, to be good; and such as were or are good, to be evil. Hence also they may judge not according to truth with regard to the characters of men; and that, not only by supposing good men to be better, or wicked men to be worse, than they are, but by believing them to have been or to be good men who were or are very wicked; or perhaps those to have been or to be wicked men, who were or are holy and unreprovable.

5. Nay, with regard to the Holy Scriptures themselves, as careful as they are to avoid it, the best of men are liable to mistake, and do mistake day by day; especially with respect to those parts thereof which less immediately relate to practice. Hence even the children of God are not agreed as to the interpretation of many places in holy writ: Nor is their difference of opinion any proof that they are not the children of God on either side; but it is a proof that we are no more to expect any living man to be infallible than to be omniscient.

6. If it be objected to what has been observed under this and the preceding head, that St. John, speaking to his brethren in the faith says, "Ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things:" (1 John 2:20:) The answer is plain: "Ye know all things that are needful for your souls' health." [cf. 3 John 2] That the Apostle never designed to extend this farther, that he could not speak it in an absolute sense, is clear, First from hence; -- that otherwise he would describe the disciple as "above his Master;" seeing Christ himself, as man, knew not all things: "Of that hour," saith he, "knoweth no man; no, not the Son, but the Father only." [Mark 13:32] It is clear, Secondly, from the Apostle's own words that follow: "These things have I written unto you concerning them that deceive you;" [cf. 1 John 3:7] as well as from his frequently repeated caution, "Let no man deceive you;" [see Mark 13:5; Eph. 5:6; 2 Thess. 2:3] which had been altogether needless, had not those very persons who had that unction from the Holy One [1 John 2:20] been liable, not to ignorance only, but to mistake also.

7. Even Christians, therefore, are not so perfect as to be free either from ignorance or error: We may, Thirdly, add, nor from infirmities. -- Only let us take care to understand this word aright: Only let us not give that soft title to known sins, as the manner of some is. So, one man tells us, "Every man has his infirmity, and mine is drunkenness;" Another has the infirmity of uncleanness; another of taking God's holy name in vain; and yet another has the infirmity of calling his brother, "Thou fool," [Matt. 5:22] or returning "railing for railing." [1 Pet. 3:9] It is plain that all you who thus speak, if ye repent not, shall, with your infirmities, go quick into hell! But I mean hereby, not only those which are properly termed bodily infirmities, [b]but all those inward or outward imperfections which are NOT of a moral nature.[/b] Such are the weakness or slowness of understanding, dulness or confusedness of apprehension, incoherency of thought, irregular quickness or heaviness of imagination. Such (to mention no more of this kind) is the want of a ready or of a retentive memory. Such in another kind, are those which are commonly, in some measure, consequent upon these; namely, slowness of speech, impropriety of language, ungracefulness of pronunciation; to which one might add a thousand nameless defects, either in conversation or behaviour. These are the infirmities which are found in the best of men, in a larger or smaller proportion. And from these none can hope to be perfectly freed till the spirit returns to God that gave it. [Eccles. 12:7]

8. Nor can we expect, till then, to be wholly free from temptation. Such perfection belongeth not to this life. It is true, there are those who, being given up to work all uncleanness with greediness, [Eph. 4:19] scarce perceive the temptations which they resist not, and so seem to be without temptation. There are also many whom the wise enemy of souls, seeing to be fast asleep in the dead form of godliness, will not tempt to gross sin, lest they should awake before they drop into everlasting burnings. I know there are also children of God who, being now justified freely, [Rom. 5:1] having found redemption in the blood of Christ, [Eph. 1:7] for the present feel no temptation. God hath said to their enemies, "Touch not mine anointed, and do my children no harm." [see 1 Chron. 16:22] And for this season, it may be for weeks or months, he causeth them to "ride on high places;" [Deut. 32:13] he beareth them as on eagles' wings, [Exod. 19:4] above all the fiery darts of the wicked one. [Eph. 6:16] But this state will not last always; as we may learn from that single consideration, -- that the Son of God himself, in the days of his flesh, was tempted even to the end of his life. [Heb. 2:18; 4:15; 6:7] Therefore, so let his servant expect to be; for "it is enough that he be as his Master." [Luke 6:40]

9. Christian perfection, therefore, does not imply (as some men seem to have imagined) an exemption either from ignorance or mistake, or infirmities or temptations. Indeed, it is only another term for holiness. They are two names for the same thing. Thus every one that is perfect is holy, and every one that is holy is, in the Scripture sense, perfect. Yet we may, lastly, observe, that neither in this respect is there any absolute perfection on earth. There is no perfection of degrees, as it is termed; none which does not admit of a continual increase. So that how much soever any man hath attained, or in how high a degree soever he is perfect, he hath still need to "grow in grace," [2 Pet. 3:18] and daily to advance in the knowledge and love of God his Saviour. [see Phil. 1:9]



I have added my own emphasis and capital letters to show he was NOT speaking of moral matters. He allowed mistakes but was at pains to show that he meant an error of judgment and not a sin. He admits there is no absolute perfection on this earth if we are looking for perfect knowledge. A careful reading of his words will show that he is not speaking as many would like him to speak. In this sermon he is pretty well teaching sinless perfection but in other sermons he seems not to be. He is particulaly wanting to show a critical sanctification rather than a gradual one.

We can see from this example of the words of Wesley being twisted or words put in his mouth, that one must be careful to go back to the source. The Lord will not take it as an excuse that our faulty doctrine was someone elses fault. Again here is what Wesley did say

"I mean hereby, not only those which are properly termed bodily infirmities, [b]but all those inward or outward imperfections which are NOT of a moral nature.[/b] Such are the weakness or slowness of understanding, dulness or confusedness of apprehension, incoherency of thought, irregular quickness or heaviness of imagination."

THE OFT MISINTERPRETATION OF PHIIPPIANS 3:12

“Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus”
(Philippians 3:12)

[12] Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Quote:
Not that I have already attained — The prize. He here enters on a new set of metaphors, taken from a race. But observe how, in the utmost fervour, he retains his sobriety of spirit.

Or am already perfected — There is a difference between one that is perfect, and one that is perfected. The one is fitted for the race, Philippians 3:15; the other, ready to receive the prize.

But I pursue, if I may apprehend that — Perfect holiness, preparatory to glory. For, in order to which I was apprehended by Christ Jesus - Appearing to me in the way, Acts 26:14. The speaking conditionally both here and in the preceding verse, implies no uncertainty, but only the difficulty of attaining.

John Wesley.

Wesley is showing that Paul is speaking of his service and that it has not yet been completed, he has not achieved the martyr death and if we read a bit further on, Paul speaks to those who have already been made perfect in the other understanding of perfection - of holiness in this life.





 2010/3/13 3:00
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

I remember i read in the works of John Wesley he changed some views with time and he edited his writings in some aspects, i dont know but there may be different versions out there? it is also hard when speaking what a dead man belived, since he cant say, but we have his writings, they have much good in them, personally i think he is true to scripture in his interpretation, and you are still my friend and brother even if you disagree :)

but wesley aside and what he actually believed, what i do think is a concern is what wesley says, if we think we can be free only from sin at death, and not in life, would not that make death the savior and not Christ?

the word salvation is in many different tenses in scripture, in the original, past , present, future.

And i dont think it applies to a "once saved always saved" modern theology i can sin how much i want carnal reasoning.

but rather christ is able to save to the uttermost, to keep me even from falling. Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

God may allow us to stumble and fall to humble us, but he is able to save us and even from falling. According to our faith be it unto us. But i can say from personal experience, that as a still "young" believer, when the Lord allowed victory in some area i was easily puffed up, so spiritual pride sneaks in and that is probably worse then the sin we got "victory" over, so i think God is purging us all the time, showing us new things.

concerning the verse you mention, phi 3:15

it could be as you say, and if it is so, we would still have Christ command in Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I have read many different explanations to that verse, but some sound good, others seem far fetched. Myself just think it mens what it says. the word also says we where predestined to be conformed into his image, so i think this process is active in our lives, if we walk as we should, day by day, we should become more humble, more loving, more free from sin etc, more like Jesus Christ was. For me this is what scripture says is the whole meening of salvation basicilly.

so when people say, we can never be free from sin this side eternity, something alarming rings in me, such statement seem to be in direct opposition to the scriptures. Matt 1:21

But just as Wesley changed his belifs in some areas, so have I, and probably will do in the future also. I have not come to a final end on what sanctification is in its fullness. but i have determined to make the most possible out of Gods grace this side eternity, that not one drop of blood from our sweet Saviour should be in vain for me.

so i press on towards perfection Heb 6:1


Anyway may God bless you!

brother Christian


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2010/3/13 5:02Profile





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