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iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

live4jc,

Francis Shaeffer on the same stage as Billy Graham:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZcQGYIWhR8

-Ian Smith


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Ian Smith

 2010/3/8 23:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:
live4jc,

Francis Shaeffer on the same stage as Billy Graham:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZcQGYIWhR8

-Ian Smith



If the scriptures teach anything..it teaches it's not so much how you start...but how you finish.

 2010/3/8 23:11
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Scott,

Hebrews 7 talks about Melchizedek, a priest of the Most High God, who lived outside of the community of Israel (Israel was not yet born) as a Gentile, of whom even the patriarch Abraham was blessed. Is it possible for a person to live outside of the Christian community and have a personal relationship with God?

In Revelations 13:8 it says that Jesus is, "the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." Salvation was not only available through Jesus after the cross, it has been available since the foundation of the earth, which is why the Patriarchs, Israelites and god-fearers in the Old Testament could be saved by faith before Jesus actually carried his cross up calvary.

In the same way, Jesus' salvation, salvation in Jesus' name is available to those even outside of the witness of the Christian church. They may never have a chance to hear the Gospel, but God will judge them on the light given to them. Remember, he calls, draws and elects people to himself. He can raise up stones as children unto Abraham, it was him who grafted the gentiles into the olive tree that is Jesus.

I am not saying this is a replacement for the Gospel, the Bible is very clear that the majority of people who will be saved will be saved by hearing the Gospel preached to them.

No one can be saved apart from Jesus, yet Jesus has and can through dreams, visions and natural revelation reveal himself to those outside of the Christian church. Given the opportunity to join the church, they will do so without hesitation -but in places like Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, unreached trible groups, this is not always possible.


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Ian Smith

 2010/3/8 23:18Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Quote:
If the scriptures teach anything..it teaches it's not so much how you start...but how you finish.



You do realize you are opening up a can of worms that will descend this thread into an oft frequented debate on SermonIndex...


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Ian Smith

 2010/3/8 23:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:
No one can be saved apart from Jesus, yet Jesus has and can through dreams, visions and natural revelation reveal himself to those outside of the Christian church.



Yes.. I understand that. The video on the front page of my site is a testimony to that. Yet in these visions the Lord reveals Himself as Jesus. Wonder why Jesus doesn't let these people unconsciencely believe in someone they know nothing of like Billy says happens?

 2010/3/8 23:24
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

The people of Nineveh in the book of Jonah repented and God forgave them of their sins -he saved them. Jonah actually knew that this was the heart of God. Jonah 4:2 says, "I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity."

The people of Nineveh were not Jews, they were not circumcised. They repented and followed the Most High God. Paul fleshes this out in Romans 1:19-20, "since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. [b]For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made[/b], so that men are without excuse." Jesus bears witness that they will stand with the saints and judge the world in the last day.

These people of Nineveh were not saved in the name of Jesus, but they were saved by the work of Jesus on the cross. They were saved because they responded to the light given to them, the revelation given to them about the Most High God. Ultimately, the work that saved them is the same work that saves us, the atoning work of Jesus on the cross, and they will bow their knees and worship the Lord Jesus before his thrown as the one who bought their salvation.


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Ian Smith

 2010/3/8 23:31Profile
live4jc
Member



Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re:



I'm going to bow out of this thread now. Don't want to detract from the purpose of this thread, which was to promote a Christ edifying message. Possibly this discussion might have been better to take place in another thread. It did however, appear necessary for those not familiar with what Billy Graham has been involved in more recently, to be made aware of, since as has been pointed out, there is cause for concern. The scriptures urge us lovingly, but firmly to withdraw from those who walk (and preach) disorderly, such as Schuller.

Love in Christ,
John

 2010/3/8 23:33Profile
hulsey
Moderator



Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 640
Missouri

 Re: Francis Schaeffer at Lausanne

I don't want to enter into a debate bro. I do love you and I only want this reply to simply add clarification to your post about Schaeffer.

I would say that I heartily recommend the sermon that brother Greg has posted it is well worth your time.

I am familiar with the history of the 1974 World Congress on Evangelism that became known by the city it met in. I'm also familiar with why Francis Schaeffer attended and that it was for the same reason that Martyn Lloyd-Jones refused to attend. They were both worried about the allegiance with more liberal Christians even some who denied scripture, whether a denial of its history or inerrancy. His speech was not directed at all towards evangelism, which was the theme of the congress, but to protecting biblical integrity, even in the field of evangelism. Here's a short excerpt from his sermon:

"We must practice the truth we say we maintain. We must practice this truth in the area of religious cooperation where it is costly (This he meant that the cost was that of separation from those who denied the inspiration of Scripture.) If we say that Christianity is truth, yet for any reason, including evangelism, we blur the line between liberal theology and biblical Christianity in the area of religious cooperation, we lose credibility."

The Lausanne Covenant's section on 'Cooperation in Evangelism' ignored this appeal.


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SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey

 2010/3/8 23:34Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Husley,

The Lausanne Covenant, the defining document of the movement says about biblical inspiration:

[i]2. THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE BIBLE

We affirm the divine inspiration, truthfulness and authority of both Old and New Testament Scriptures in their entirety as the only written word of God, without error in all that it affirms, and the only infallible rule of faith and practice. We also affirm the power of God's word to accomplish his purpose of salvation. The message of the Bible is addressed to all men and women. For God's revelation in Christ and in Scripture is unchangeable. Through it the Holy Spirit still speaks today. He illumines the minds of God's people in every culture to perceive its truth freshly through their own eyes and thus discloses to the whole Church ever more of the many-colored wisdom of God.

(II Tim. 3:16; II Pet. 1:21; John 10:35; Isa. 55:11; 1 Cor. 1:21; Rom. 1:16, Matt. 5:17,18; Jude 3; Eph. 1:17,18; 3:10,18) [/i]


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Ian Smith

 2010/3/8 23:38Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

This thread highlights a major issue in the debate about God's salvific redemptive plan. As many point out from Scripture, Jesus said He will draw all men unto Himself. If Christ intends by this statment to draw each and every man, then surely the Father must reveal Christ in all men's hearts at some moment or moments in their life. If this is true, and we know that not all men get actual special revelations of Christ apart from the Gospel, then Iansmith is right, as well as Graham and Schuler, that it must occur on some other basis, subconscious knowledge, universalism, or salvation granted on some modicum of faith in God unrelated to Christ (Catholicism holds this).

Scripture has no real support for this proposition. SScott is correct that Romans 2 is a passage designed to explain that all men are without excuse and guilty before God and responsible for their condemnation. It is not a passage intended to establish another way to God.

What ends up happening for those who hold to each and every man being drawn is they don't think about it or they conjure up alternative means for the gospel to be the power of God unto salvation even for those who don't hear it. This is an extra Biblical pursuit to make sense of a point of view.

To make sense of what seems to be a requirement that God shine the light of the knowledge of Jesus into a man's heart through revelation of the Gospel message and to reconcile the passage that God draws all men to Christ, perhaps the faithful should look to a different answer than universalism, subconscious revelation or other conjectures and speculative theories.

Further, this thread also highlights the difference in how people define and explain regeration and its effects, especially in defining who a Christian is as opposed to how men get saved who haven't heard the Gospel.

For those who find the doctrines of grace to be inhibitors to evangelism, I would certainly think that salvation apart from hearing and responding to the Gospel in a knowing way is a huge wet blanket to asking people to forfeit their very lives to take a message to people who don't apparently really need to hear it, although it would be nice.......

Finally, if Hindus, Buddhist, Muslims, etc. can find their own path to God through their religions as implied, then idolatry has no meaning and Christ's death no purpose. Men who preach such things teach the doctrines of demons, It doesn't matter who they are or what they've done in the past.





 2010/3/9 9:04Profile





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