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iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

John,

Jesus interacted with sinners, prostitutes, pharisees, sadducees, zealots, god-fearers, tax collectors. He preached in synagogues that were predominantly legalistic. He preached in the temple that was given over to idol worship. He was even talking alone with a sinful Samaritan woman by the well! By your own logic, we should discount the ministry of Jesus because of the people he associated with.

On the other hand, we should evaluate the person in light of what they say in those places. Jesus, the embodiment of the Word of God was being both salt and light among the people that he interacted with. Once again, just because the man had a conversation with Robert Schuller does not mean that he is a universalist -you are pronouncing him guilty by association.

Billy Graham is a prominent member of the Southern Baptist Convention... and so is Paul Washer. Therefore the ministry of Paul Washer is heretical and we should not listen to what he has to say nor regard the fruits of his ministry!

George Verwer, founder of one of the most prominent missions agencies of the last half century was converted at a Billy Graham Crusade... does that discount his ministry? He actually met together with Billy Graham last year! Does that discount him for the prize?

In the sixty year ministry of Billy Graham, he has not fallen into adultery, scandal or overt heresy. His ministry has stood the test of time, and even now the organizations that he helped to found continue to spread the Gospel boldly around the globe. One only has to read the Lausanne Covenant (http://www.lausanne.org/covenant), arguably the most significant Christian document of the 20th century to know where Billy stands. He was the one in fact who called together the Lausanne Conference on World Evangelism (at its time the largest gathering of Protestant Evangelical leaders ever assembled) in the spirit of the early ecumenical councils and presided over it, here is what the covenant, signed by Billy Graham says about the uniqueness of Jesus Christ:

[i]3. THE UNIQUENESS AND UNIVERSALITY OF CHRIST
We affirm that there is only one Saviour and only one gospel, although there is a wide diversity of evangelistic approaches. We recognise that everyone has some knowledge of God through his general revelation in nature. But we deny that this can save, for people suppress the truth by their unrighteousness. We also reject as derogatory to Christ and the gospel every kind of syncretism and dialogue which implies that Christ speaks equally through all religions and ideologies. Jesus Christ, being himself the only God-man, who gave himself as the only ransom for sinners, is the only mediator between God and people. There is no other name by which we must be saved. All men and women are perishing because of sin, but God loves everyone, not wishing that any should perish but that all should repent. Yet those who reject Christ repudiate the joy of salvation and condemn themselves to eternal separation from God. To proclaim Jesus as "the Saviour of the world" is not to affirm that all people are either automatically or ultimately saved, still less to affirm that all religions offer salvation in Christ. Rather it is to proclaim God's love for a world of sinners and to invite everyone to respond to him as Saviour and Lord in the wholehearted personal commitment of repentance and faith. Jesus Christ has been exalted above every other name; we long for the day when every knee shall bow to him and every tongue shall confess him Lord.

(Gal. 1:6-9;Rom. 1:18-32; I Tim. 2:5,6; Acts 4:12; John 3:16-19; II Pet. 3:9; II Thess. 1:7-9;John 4:42; Matt. 11:28; Eph. 1:20,21; Phil. 2:9-11) [/i]



Seriously, we need to get on our knees before the Lord and confess the hardness of our hearts. The Lord wants us to seek doctrinal purity, but he also wants us to show grace, mercy and seek unity. There are false prophets and wolves among the sheep, but let us be careful not to throw darts haphazardly, otherwise we will be playing into the plans of the enemy who is the ace dart thrower.

The best way to combat heresy and false teachers is to preach boldly the true Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. We need to proclaim it from the roof tops, in the alleys and back streets! We need to make sure to reach the people that false prophets are currently reaching and feed them with the Living Word. Once again, our model is Jesus, who rebuked his disciples for telling a man to stop driving out demons in the name of Jesus. Ultimately Jesus is the final judge between the shepherds and the wolves, and he will punish the wolves accordingly -let us be faithful to be the best shepherds we can!


_________________
Ian Smith

 2010/3/8 22:26Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Suppose I followed you around with a camera and taped everything that you said, every day, whether sick or well, tired or alert, prepared or unprepared, in public or private... would every statement that came out of your mouth have 100% doctrinal precision?



Hey Iansmith... No..I did not read your whole post but think that statement is really a stawman. Nobody followed Billy around secretly trying to find some false statement about some questionable bible doctrine. The statements by Billy that are being discussed in this thread about about ESSENTIAL BASIC easy to understand truth that any new born babe in Jesus Christ understands. Billy denies that Jesus is the only way to be saved in clear denial of what the scripture teaches. That's Christianity 101..actually it may even be easier than Christianity 101. To deny this is to deny Christ no matter how much he uses the name of Jesus or says "God loves you". It's not like Billy is debating or questioning the gift of tongues or head coverings...something debated by much of christianity. He coming against one of the most basic foundational teachings of the faith. I don't care what his past is and neither would Paul. Paul was very clear:

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul said that even if he, one of the chief apostles, used by the Lord to write most of the new testement...even if he preached another gospel...let him be accursed. It didn't matter how many people he had led to the Lord, how many churches he had established, how much of the scripture he had penned...if he preached another gospel he would be accursed.

I get the feeling though that if Paul were here today you would be correcting and rebuking Paul for staying true to the scriptures and say he's being judgemental.

 2010/3/8 22:29
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Scott, please cite your sources. Where does Billy Graham deny "Jesus is the only way to be saved in clear denial of what the scripture teaches."


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Ian Smith

 2010/3/8 22:35Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

[b]Straw man arguments[/b]. [i]To portray the position of another in a way that inaccurately represents his point of view but makes an attack on his views easy and more accessible even though it is dishonest[/i].

I said that those who are attacking Billy Graham were taking a few statements out of of the broader context of the man's life in a way that distorted his life and teachings. I stand by this as being a proper assessment of their actions. My analogy was made in order to flesh out what they are guilty of doing in a way that hopefully will help them to see their error and come before Jesus with humility and repent for their character assassination of one of his servants. I am not guilty of a straw man.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2010/3/8 22:39Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Scott, please cite your sources. Where does Billy Graham deny "Jesus is the only way to be saved in clear denial of what the scripture teaches."



Rom 10:13 [b]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [/b]
Rom 10:14 [b]How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?[/b] and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

There's no such thing as calling on Jesus and not being conscience of it. You can't call on what you don't know. Paul is clear despite what Billy teaches.

This teaching of calling on an "unknown Jesus" is not found in scriptures.

 2010/3/8 22:42
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Beware the following fallacy:

[b]Poisoning the well[/b]. [i]An attack on a person’s character in a way that seeks to prejudice others against him before he has had a chance to state his case[/i].


_________________
Ian Smith

 2010/3/8 22:43Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Scott, your quoting Romans 10:13-15 does not discount what Paul also wrote in Romans 2:12-16. These seemingly contradictory statements by Paul either prove that the scripture is not consistent and therefore not the inspired word of God, or there is an explanation that remedies this inconsistency that can be deduced from further study of the scriptures. You are proof-texting at the expense of the whole witness of the scripture.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2010/3/8 22:49Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Quote:
No..I did not read your whole post -sscott



Show some courtesy and go back and read what was written... that's just polite.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2010/3/8 22:51Profile









 Re:

Actually Romans 2:12-16 says nothing about the savlation of unbelievers who don't hear the Gospel that is now required of all to believe to be saved. It simply states that all men, with our without law, will and are guilty before God.

The scripture is quite clear that all have sinned.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

[b]If[/b] your trying to say that unbelieving gentiles can live in such a way as to not sin they you are saying they can and are justified apart from Christ. But I'm not really sure if you're saying that.

 2010/3/8 23:01
live4jc
Member



Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re:


Hi Iansmith,

Dear brother, just wanted to mention that I did not call Billy Graham a Universalist, only Robert Schuller. I think it's important to consider that the tone of the conversation between the 2 men was not one of an Evangelical Christian correcting a Universalist. It's true that Jesus related to publicans and sinners, as did Paul. However a distinction is drawn in the Bible between being friendly towards people who don't hold to Christian truths, and fellowshipping with them in a spiritual sense, as if they were fellow Christians. There are many admonishments to 'withdraw from", 'reject', 'rebuke' those who present themselves as Christians, but who openly support a message that runs contrary to the gospel. Francis Shaeffer used to say that he would never appear on stage with someone who did not hold to the essential truths of Christianity, if the platform the two of them were sharing was one that would lead the audience to think that they were 'brothers in Christ'. I believe this is the right approach to take.

In Jesus,
John

 2010/3/8 23:02Profile





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