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Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Kind of off topic, but that is a sweet picture of him preaching here, so intense looking. Nice selection Greg.


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Paul

 2010/3/6 21:03Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Want to know what got Billy in trouble as of recent years? He read his bible.

Romans 2:12-16 says:

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. [b](Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) [/b]This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Now consider Hebrews 11:24-26

By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. He regarded disgrace [b]for the sake of Christ[/b] as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.

Moses by faith followed the Lord God, but in retrospect the writer of Hebrews says that he endured disgrace for the sake of Christ -did he know he was enduring disgrace for the sake of Jesus? Most likely not in name, but he was! In the same way, is it possible for a gentile without biblical revelation to follow Jesus without knowing they are following Jesus?

I don't think the bible is offering another way besides Jesus, but I do think that our understanding of God's Sovereignty and his Election may need to give God more leeway in how he operates! He is God and we are not.

Despite this, the Apostle Paul (writer of the above verses) did not become any less zealous in preaching the Gospel... I think we should keep that in mind. Allowing Jesus to operate in ways that we cannot comprehend does not excuse us from the great commission that he gave to his church! Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit...!


_________________
Ian Smith

 2010/3/7 0:47Profile









 Re:

Please just check into what Billy Graham has said himself. Ian Paisley began to preach against Billy Graham preaching in his town for good reason. Listen to what Billy himself says. Look at this and listen with an open heart:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sow0gfXXHGY

Wouldn't Billy Graham's ministry violate the "95 Theses" Greg wrote in a multitude of ways? Most notably#'s 2,3,4,5,8,15,20,23,25,27,28,29,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,41,44,51,
AND VERY SPECIFICALY #'s 53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,65,66,67,68,70,80,86,87,91,92,93,94,95.?

Rightfully so, you might say that many more true godly preachers would fit this bill in certain ways due to the cultural "church system" we have built and been ingrained in for decades, if not centuries. Fair enough in light of God's grace and mercy that this "old wineskin" has been used, although in the days ahead will be replaced by a "new wineskin" which is really the original plan for the church shown in Acts and the rest of the NT.

However, this man actually denies the Gospel, and has for years and years now, when he says that Muslims, Hindus, Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., can "be saved" without being born again. What did Jesus tell Nicodemas? Would the Words of Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Jude, John, etc., in scripture agree with these statements made by Billy Graham? I am not "sin-sniffing" or "heresy-hunting", as I really am saddened by the fact that this conversation is even having to be had after anyone sees what the man has said. He has apologized for and built up the pope, politicians who openly support the murder of babies and the rights of homosexuals, those involved in freemasonry and all other false religions, etc.

Just to be clear, I am not "on the warpath" prophetically as in my earlier days, but the Lord has set his face against these people and that will become more clear in the days ahead and less clear to those involved in the Emergent watered down, apostasized, Universalistic, heretical movement in the land. If you didn't know what Billy Graham said, then obviously you didn't know and God's grace(and the truth into which the Lord leads)is what opens all of our eyes. If you see what he has said/done in recent years which outright denies the Gospel Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, Jude, James (etc.) preached, and yet you take up for him and create doctrines to affirm his error. I don't care who you are, you are in a bad place concerning discernment and your walk for the days ahead. I say that in earnest, in love, in grace, sincerity, concern, and hope that the eyes of more who profess His name would be opened.
"Or do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?"

 2010/3/7 10:57
live4jc
Member



Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re:


Dear saints in Christ,

I found the video which jeffmar posted a link to, to be very concerning.

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 4:12

Billy Graham preached this in his early days of ministry.

In Jesus,
John

 2010/3/7 14:33Profile









 Re:

I mean, if you look at what the man said, and compare that to the truth of God's Word and see the contradiction, you have to ask yourself one question (among many others):

Did Paul mean what he said in Galatians 1:8-12 when he said, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any mn preach another gospel to you than that you have recieved, let him be accursed.

For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is notafter man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."?

Why is Billy Graham apparently America's "sacred cow" that can't even be questioned when he has become a complete heretic outside of the faith, but yet Paul said don't even accept him, or an angel from heaven, if the message being preached changed? If you were truly converted at one of the "come forward and ask Jesus into your heart" crusades, it was, by the grace of God, in spite of the "evangelistic" message, not because of it.

I thank God truly that no man was present when I got born again but me, the Spirit of God, and my Bible in a room the size of your bathroom. I know my conversion was supernatural of God's sovereign grace, and not because of any man's crusade. I know God has saved people genuinely in these conditions, but Billy Graham himself said that he guesses that 95% of the people who came forward in his meetings were never saved. Wouldn't that make us examine the whole "ask Jesus into your heart" crusade and then take a fresh biblical look at the rest of the work?

Maybe the work was genuine in the beginning (not 100% sure, but God knows), but the man denies the Gospel! Jesus said that "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father, except through me" (John 14:6). And, if you read John 10:1-13, you will see that when a wolf comes, the hirelings tuck their tail and run because they care nothing for the sheep. So, the wolf scatters the flock and attacks the sheep. But, the good shepherd stays and defends the sheep from wolves.

If I disagree with a preacher on any particular issue such as Calvinism vs. Armenianism, freewill of man vs. soveriegnty of God, preterism vs. amillinialism, etc. - saints of God may see things differently at any given time in their walk according to what the Lord has shown them and what they see in the Word. However, straight up apostasy which denies the Lord's Gospel "once for all entrusted to the saints" is something altogether different.

Some have even defended Billy Graham saying that he is somehow altogether "senile" so he responds in this way. Really? Would God really allow that in the life of a faithful saint? Maybe, though I personally have my doubts. Well, Billy went on Larry King and said the same garbage. He was apparently perfectly mentally capable again up until the answering of that one question. He went senile and denied the gospel. Then, magically, he was immediately able to think and speak clearly again. Nope, logic doesn't line up with that silly argument.

Apparently, we are at least partially blinded by the very "celebrity preacher" plague which we claim to be against. In theory, we are against it. In reality, we will actually defend it if the name is Billy Graham. I wish it wasn't true that he said all the things he did, but it is true, he did say it, and after being properly warned, rebuked, and called out on it (which it is my understanding has happened), then he should be called out as what he is: an apostate false teacher who teaches Universalism and gives multitudes of people false assurance of salvation and aides them in their deception which will ultimately condemn them to an eternity of judgement under God's wrath.

He said almost exactly the same things that Joel Osteen did concerning "wider mercy salvation" when he was on Larry King. If Joel Osteen preached a seemingly good message in the early days of his ministry, would we be posting and praising his early sermons? Would we be rushing to defend him and criticize the ones who would bring the error into light for the health of the Body? I am not speaking the truth because I am "unloving" towards Billy Graham, but because the love of Christ within me compels me to seek to protect the sheep from wolves. The man praised the pope as one of the most influential and important religious leaders of our day. Have we so lost our way that even in "Revival" circles we no longer see the danger of that one thing immediately?
Lord help us!!!

 2010/3/7 23:46









 Re:

Notice I don't hardly ever post, so I am not someone who "has to always be talking just to hear myself". This is important saints. Discernment is important!!!!

 2010/3/7 23:48
hulsey
Moderator



Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 640
Missouri

 Re:

I am grieved over the statements made and the direction advanced by Billy Graham's ministry over the years. However, I listened to this sermon and it would do some people good to hear it.

I would say that I am also grieved over the direction that Solomon's life took and the end that he had. There are bible teachers that teach that Solomon finally went to hell. Carter Conlon and Zac Poonen both believe this. Yet we all read the books out of the O.T. regularly that Solomon wrote.

I hope and am determined not to have the end that Solomon had, and I pray for Brother Graham that he recovers and has a good end also. I will also profit from the beneficial things that they have taught and wrote in times past.


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SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey

 2010/3/8 0:50Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

I want to pose a question to each one of you. Suppose I followed you around with a camera and taped everything that you said, every day, whether sick or well, tired or alert, prepared or unprepared, in public or private... would every statement that came out of your mouth have 100% doctrinal precision? Certainly not, but hopefully if one watched hours of the footage, the pattern that they would see is one of sanctification and a pursuit after God.

Recently I have been studying the attributes of God, and believe me when I say that there is only one perfect, immutable, faithful, holy, righteous one in the universe, and that is God. We cannot, and should not expect the same of any created being, that would be to diminish the perfections of God.

Now suppose I followed you around with a digital camera, and took tens of thousands of photos of you in the same situations and brought before your friends, neighbors, colleagues and even your congregations only the photos that put you in a bad light, but buried the rest that showed any of the ways that God has used you over the years. Then suppose I were to make a website about you that featured only the pictures -say the four or five worst pictures and then worked to persuade these people that this is what you were like one hundred percent of the time. I would be deceiving people would I not? Is not deception from the enemy, the one who hates Jesus?

I urge you brothers, look at the fruits of Billy Graham's ministry, not just the four or five unripe bananas that every one of these anti-Billy ministries parades around to show that he is a heretic, but look at the width and breadth of his ministry. Listen to any one of the thousands of sermons that he has preached, read the thousands of articles that he has written in contrast with the four or five interviews/articles that he has given where he has fumbled an answer.

Do you not see that you are being controlled by the enemy. Slander should not find any place among the children of light. We are playing into the trap of the enemy, and I see that even I have been guilty of tearing down Godly men with supposedly 'smoking gun' evidence.

The one segment that one will see come up again and again in attacking the credibility of Billy Graham is from an interview he did with Robert Schuller in which he says,

Quote:
I think everyone that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they are conscious of it or not they are members of the Body of Christ. And that is what God is doing today. He is calling people out of the world for his name. Whether they come from the Muslim world or the Buddhist world or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ because they have been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their heart that they need something that they don't have and they turn to the only light that they have and I think that they are saved and that they are going to be with us in heaven.



Now let us break this down statement by statement and see if Billy Graham has fallen into heresy -because remember, the word that supposedly gets Billy into trouble is "wide" which he never said, but was put into his mouth by Schuller.

1. [i]"I think everyone that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they are conscious of it or not they are members of the Body of Christ."[/i] I have already quoted Hebrews 11:24-27 in a previous post, but please read this verse 26, "He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward." If you read this verse, you will see that the writer of Hebrews says that Moses was motivated by the knowledge of Christ, yet the Lord Jesus had yet to be conceived physically by the Holy Spirit in the Virgin Mary. This knowledge of Christ eternal was one given to Moses by God, not through a historic witness, but by direct revelation. Is it impossible for God to do so in the hearts and minds of others around the world today? Do you want to limit the power of God?

2. [i]"And that is what God is doing today. He is calling people out of the world for his name. Whether they come from the Muslim world or the Buddhist world or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ because they have been called by God."[/i] Isn't it true that apart from a call from Jesus no one can come to the Lord God? Isn't it also true that Jesus calls those whom have yet to hear the Gospel, or may not even have the opportunity to hear the Gospel. Romans 2:12-16 which I have already quoted in a previous post says that those who have not received the Gospel will be judged by the law of God written in their hearts. Abraham did not have the law, and yet he was able to have faith in God and to become the father of faith. Does not the bible bear witness (especially in Romans 4) that Abraham had faith before he received the circumcision, therefore faith comes before the law! When Billy says that this is what God is doing, I think it can be true to say that this is what God has always been doing. Calling people out of darkness into light. The Spirit bears witness to the Christ even in the absence of a Christian church to share the full Gospel, and Paul shares that they will not be judged by what they do not know, but by the light that has been revealed to each of them by God. In this way, there are many being called to Jesus out of the Muslim world, the Buddhist world, the Hindu world through dreams and visions where Jesus comes directly to an individual and announces his presence to that person. I have met many believers from foreign countries who have received such visitations from Jesus, even while they were in darkness! Just remember, it is not what we call ourselves that makes us children of God, it is whether we are called of God. Billy Graham is stating a biblical truth here, can I get an amen?!

3. [i]"They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their heart that they need something that they don't have and they turn to the only light that they have and I think that they are saved and that they are going to be with us in heaven."[/i] This assumes that God, in his mercy, when He reveals to a person their need for Jesus, gives them enough grace to respond to that revelation. I do admit that this statement can be stronger, and can also be misinterpreted to say something that I do not think Billy intended to say. He is not saying here that all Muslims, all Buddhists and all non-believers have a right relationship with God, on the contrary he is speaking about "called" ones. Billy is speaking about specific people within these communities that do not have a gospel-witness that have been called by God and given enough light to act on that calling. God would only be working to condemn a person if he gave them light unto salvation but not the grace in order to respond to it. That is the principle behind Sovereign Grace. It is funny that while Billy is often labeled as an Armenian heretic, he is here espousing a view that is thoroughly Calvinist in its understanding of God -maybe this is the doing of his late-wife's Presbyterian upbringing.

None of the things that are said in this supposedly condemning interview are actually false when brought under the light of scripture. They just rub our ears wrong. In fact, Billy is saying that Jesus is the only way, but we are twisting his words to say something completely different. The way IS narrow, only a few will enter... but remember, God is the one handing out the tickets, not us! Just because a person doesn't have the same label as I do does not condemn them, each person has to respond to the light that they have been given by Jesus, and they will be judged by Him, not by us. It would be very sad if only Southern Baptists went to heaven, Southern Baptists are great and all, but I would like to think that after two thousand years Jesus has reaped a larger and more diverse crop than just Southern Baptists. Do you see what I am saying?

I have served as a missionary am studying to be a career missionary. I believe that we must preach the Gospel, every believer that has been called by God is compelled by the love of Christ to preach Him and Him only! Woe to me if I do not preach the Gospel. I am not saying that God's Sovereign Grace, even among the gentiles is an excuse to abandon the call to missions. We have been commissioned! We have been given marching orders by our general -it would be mutiny to disobey. God does not need us, and yet he chooses to use us as his instruments. He does not need us to reach the gentiles and yet he calls us to Go with his authority and make disciples of all nations. From this I can only infer that by God's Sovereign will it is through the church preaching the Gospel that the greatest harvest can be gathered. We do not preach a message that condemns people to hell, but one that sets people free from the bondage of Satan.

Certainly there were god-fearers in the biblical narrative. The Queen of Sheba, Naaman, Cornelius, Uriah the Hittite... a careful study of the bible will show that there were many that God drew to the nation of Israel and to Jesus from outside of Israel. Even the entire town of Nineveh, which repented due to the preaching of Jonah will stand at the resurrection as judges along with the saints. However, in contrast with the countless gentiles who were judged and punished by God, it is quite unsettling. The gate is VERY narrow for those to whom the Gospel has not been preached -even the eye-of-the-needle seems very generous in light of the biblical revelation on this. God killed all the firstborns in Egypt, along with countless others in the plagues and the entire army in the Red Sea, only a hand full of Egyptians actually fled with Israel and came under YHWH's banner. We need to preach the Gospel, even if God does call a few individuals out of an unredeemed culture, there are still many more within that culture sinking into hell without the light of the Gospel witness! Billy Graham has been faithful to preach around the world, to millions of people. Sometimes I find it difficult to share my faith with the person next to me on the bus. How about you?

There are men who have made careers out of cutting down other men, but if we look at the scriptures we do not see this in the life of Jesus. He did preach out against hypocrisy and heretical teachings about the Father, but he never named names. Ultimately every one is going to be judged by God according to the light they have been given. Billy Graham is right in saying (in his infamous Larry King appearance) that he is not the judge. It is true that he could have said more pointed and strong statements concerning God, and I believe that he has -because he has given thousands of interviews in which he has said that Jesus is the only way, yet we crucify him for a handful of them where he is less direct than we feel he should have been. Let us stop looking at snap-shots and look at the film version, lets stop looking at individual pieces of fruit and start looking at the whole harvest.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2010/3/8 15:06Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Either the critics have been silenced or my post was too long and boring for them to read...


_________________
Ian Smith

 2010/3/8 20:42Profile
live4jc
Member



Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re:


Hi Iansmith,

I agree that Billy Graham has done much in his ministry to advance the cause of Christ and believe that we can benefit from listening to sermons from these early days. At the same time, isn't it wise for us to acknowledge that there may be concerns with a man's present ministry, if he interacts with men like Robert Schuller (as if he were a Christian brother), who is a confessed Universalist ? Should this not concern us from a man known for boldly proclaiming Christ as the only way to God ? The apostle Paul said that our stance towards those who openly proclaimed a gospel contrary to the gospel of Christ, should be to have nothing to do with them.

In Christian love,
John


 2010/3/8 21:56Profile





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