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 On Predestination by John Wesley

[img]http://www.watchword.org/images/stories/wes.jpg[/img]

[b]On Predestination[/b]
[i]by John Wesley[/i]

Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son: -- Whom he did predestinate, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 8:29, 30

1. Our beloved brother Paul," says St. Peter, "according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his Epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15, 16)

2. It is not improbable, that among those things spoken by St. Paul, which are hard to be understood, the Apostle Peter might place what he speaks on this subject in the eighth and ninth chapters of his epistle to the Romans. And it is certain not only the unlearned, but many of the most learned men in the world, and not the "unstable" only, but many who seemed to be well established in the truths of the gospel, have for several centuries, "wrested" these passages "to their own destruction."

3. "Hard to be understood" we may well allow them to be, when we consider how men of the strongest understanding, improved by all the advantages of education, have continually differed in judgment concerning them. And this very consideration, that there is so wide a difference upon the head between men of the greatest learning, sense, and piety, one might imagine would make all who now speak upon the subject exceedingly wary and self-diffident. But I know not how it is, that just the reverse is observed in every part of the Christian world. No writers upon earth appear more positive than those who write on this difficult subject. Nay, the same men, who, writing upon any other subject, are remarkably modest and humble, on this alone lay aside all self-distrust,

And speak ex cathedra infallible.
This is peculiarly observable of almost all those who assert the absolute decrees. But surely it is possible to avoid this: Whatever we propose, may be proposed with modesty, and with deference to those wise and good men who are of a contrary opinion; and the rather, because so much has been said already, on every part of the question, so many volumes have been written, that it is scarcely possible to say anything which has not been said before. All I would offer at present, not to the lovers of contention, but to men of piety and candour, are a few short hints, which perhaps may cast some light on the text above recited.

4. The more frequently and carefully I have considered it, the more I have been inclined to think that the apostle is not here (as many have supposed) describing a chain of causes and effects; (this does not seem to have entered into his heart;) but simply showing the method in which God works; the order in which the several branches of salvation constantly follow each other. And this, I apprehend, will be clear to any serious and impartial inquirer, surveying the work of God either forward or backward; either from the beginning to the end, or from the end to the beginning.

5. And, First, let us look forward on the whole work of God in the salvation of man; considering it from the beginning, the first point, till it terminates in glory. The first point is, the foreknowledge of God. God foreknew those in every nation, those who would believe, from the beginning of the world to the consummation of all things. But, in order to throw light upon this dark question, it should be well observed, that when we speak of God's foreknowledge, we do not speak according to the nature of things, but after the manner of men. For, if we speak properly, there is no such thing as either foreknowledge or afterknowledge in God. All time, or rather all eternity, (for the children of men,) being present to him at once, he does not know one thing in one point of view from everlasting to everlasting. As all time, with everything that exists therein, is present with him at once, so he sees at once, whatever was is, or will be, to the end of time. But observe: We must not think they are because he knows them. No: he knows them because they are. Just as I (if one may be allowed to compare the things of men with the deep things of God) now know the sun shines: Yet the sun does not shine because I know it, but I know it because he shines. My knowledge supposes the sun to shine; but does not in anywise cause it. In like manner, God knows that man sins; for he knows all things: Yet we do not sin because he knows it, but he knows it because we sin; and his knowledge supposes our sin, but does not in anywise cause it. In a word, God, looking on all ages, from the creation to the consummation, as a moment, and seeing at once whatever is in the hearts of all the children of men, knows every one that does or does not believe, in every age or nation. Yet what he knows, whether faith or unbelief, is in nowise caused by his knowledge. Men are as free in believing or not believing as if he did not know it at all.

6. Indeed, if man were not free, he could not be accountable either for his thoughts, word, or actions. If he were not free, he would not be capable either of reward or punishment; he would be incapable either of virtue or vice, of being either morally good or bad. If he had no more freedom than the sun, the moon, or the stars, he would be no more accountable than them. On supposition that he had no more freedom than them, the stones of the earth would be as capable of reward, and as liable to punishment, as man: One would be as accountable as the other. Yea, and it would be as absurd to ascribe either virtue or vice to him as to ascribe it to the stock of a tree.

7. But to proceed: "Whom he did foreknow, them he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son." This is the Second step: (To speak after the manner of men: For in fact, there is nothing before or after in God:) In other words, God decrees, from everlasting to everlasting, that all who believe in the Son of his love, shall be conformed to his image; shall be saved from all inward and outward sin, into all inward and outward holiness. Accordingly, it is a plain undeniable fact all who truly believe in the name of the Son of God do now "receive the end of their faith, the salvation of their souls;" and this in virtue of the unchangeable, irreversible, irresistible decree of God, -- "He that believeth shall be saved;" "he that believeth not, shall be damned."

8. "Whom he did predestinate, them he also called." This is the Third step: (Still remembering that we speak after the manner of men:) To express it a little more largely: According to his fixed decree, that believers shall be saved, those whom he foreknows as such, he calls both outwardly and inwardly, -- outwardly by the word of his grace, and inwardly by his Spirit. This inward application of his word to the heart, seems to be what some term "effectual calling:" And it implies, the calling them children of God; the accepting them "in the Beloved;" the justifying them "freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ."

9. "Whom he called, them he justified." This is the Fourth step. It is generally allowed that the word "justified" here is taken in a peculiar sense; that it means he made them just or righteous. He executed his decree, "conforming them to the image of his Son;" or, as we usually speak, sanctified them.

10. It remains, "whom he justified, them he also glorified." This is the Last step. Having made them "meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light," he gives them "the kingdom which was prepared for them before the world began." This is the order wherein, "according to the counsel of his will," the plan he has laid down from eternity, he saves those whom he foreknew; the true believers in every place and generation.

11. The same great work of salvation by faith, according to the foreknowledge and decree of God, may appear in a still clearer light, if we view it backward, from the end to the beginning. Suppose then you stood with the "great multitude which no man can number, out of every nation, and tongue, and kindred, and people," who "give praise unto Him that stretch upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever;" you would not find one among them all that were entered into glory, who was not a witness of that great truth, "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord;" "not one of all that innumerable company who was not sanctified before he was glorified. By holiness he was prepared for glory; according to the invariable will of the Lord, that the crown, purchased by the blood of his son, should be given to none but those who are renewed by his Spirit. He is become "the author of eternal salvation" only "to them that obey him;" "that obey him inwardly and outwardly; that are holy in heart, and holy in all manner of conversation."

12. And could you take view of all those upon earth who are now sanctified, you would find no one of these had been sanctified till after he was called. He was first called, not only with an outward call, by the word and the messengers of God, but likewise with an inward call, by his Spirit applying his word, enabling him to believe in the only-begotten Son of God, and bearing testimony with his spirit that he was a child of God. And it was by this very means they were all sanctified. It was by a sense of the love of God shed abroad in his heart, that everyone of them was enabled to love God. Loving God, he loved his neighbor as himself, and had power to walk in all his commandments blameless. This is a rule which admits of no exception. God calls a sinner his own, that is, justifies him, before he sanctifies. And by this very thing, the consciousness of his favour, he works in him that grateful, filial affection, from which spring every good temper, and word, and work.

13. And who are they that are thus called of God, but those whom he had before predestinated, or decreed, to "conform to the image of his Son?" This decree (still speaking after the manner of men) precedes every man's calling: Every believer was predestinated before he was called. For God calls none, but "according to the counsel of his will," according to this Orothesis, or plan of acting, which he had laid down before the foundation of the world.

14. Once more: As all that are called were predestinated, so all whom God has predestinated he foreknew. He knew, he saw them as believers, and as such predestinated them to salvation, according to his eternal decree, "He that believeth shall be saved." Thus we see the whole process of the work of God, from the end to the beginning. Who are glorified? None but those who were first sanctified. Who are sanctified? None but those who were first justified. Who are justified? None but those who were first predestinated? Who are predestinated? None but those whom God foreknew as believers. Thus the purpose and word of God stand unshaken as the pillars of heaven: -- "He that believeth shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned." And thus God is clear from the blood of all men; since whoever perishes, perishes by his own act and deed. "They will not come unto me," says the Savior of men; and "there is no salvation in any other." They "will not believe;" and there is no other way either to present or eternal salvation. Therefore, their blood is upon their own head; and God is still "justified in his saying" that he "willeth all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of his truth."

15. The sum of all is this: the almighty, all-wise God sees and knows, from everlasting to everlasting, all that is, that was, and that is to come, through one eternal now. With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present. He has, therefore, if we speak according to the truth of things, no foreknowledge, no afterknowledge. This would be ill consistent with the Apostle's words, "With him is no variableness or shadow of turning;" and with the account he gives of himself by the Prophet, "I the Lord change not." Yet when he speaks to us, knowing whereof we are made, knowing the scantiness of our understanding, he lets himself down to our capacity, and speaks of himself after the manner of men. Thus, in condescension to our weakness, he speaks of his own purpose, counsel, plan, foreknowledge. Not that God has any need of counsel, of purpose, or of planning his work beforehand. Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally? To one who was so gross in his conceptions might he not say, "Thinkest thou I am such an one as thyself?" Not so: As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than thy ways. I know, decree, work, in such a manner as it is not possible for thee to conceive: But to give thee some faint, glimmering knowledge of my ways, I use the language of men, and suit myself to thy apprehensions in this thy infant state of existence.

16. What is it, then, that we learn from this whole account? It is this, and no more: -- (1) God knows all believers; (2) wills that they should be saved from sin; (3) to that end, justifies them, (4) sanctifies and (5) takes them to glory.

O that men would praise the Lord for this his goodness; and that they would be content with this plain account of it, and not endeavour to wade into those mysteries which are too deep for angels to fathom!


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2010/2/28 0:35Profile
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 Re: On Predestination by John Wesley

Greg,

Wesley hated predestination. Wesley's view of men has man predestinating themselves to salvation. This is called "predestination according to foreseen faith." In Wesley's view, God looks down the corridors of time and sees who will believe the gospel, and who will not-- and then predestinates them to salvation / damnation based on their free choice. This is no predestination at all! The reality, is that if God really did look down the corridors of time to see who would choose Him, all men would say "No!" because they are "dead in trespasses and sins" and "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." and therefore everybody would get what they deserved. Eternal Damnation. This is no good news and no predestination at all. And to hold that some men would choose yes, and thereby be predestinated to glory, implies salvation by works-- (for it makes one's eternal salvation dependent upon his own choice, apart from God's irresistable grace-- which is contrary to the scriptures: John1.13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." Rom9.16 "16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.")

As an alternative to wesley's view above, I suggest people read the following excerpt in which Spurgeon presents the biblical view of what is meant by Paul when he says "foreknowledge." It reads as follows:

Quote:
[b]"No hint is given in the text of foreseen virtue any more than of foreseen sin, and, therefore, we are driven to find another meaning for the word. We find that the word "know" is frequently used in Scripture, not only for knowledge, but also for favor, love, and complacency. Our Lord Jesus Christ will say, in the judgment, concerning certain persons, "I never knew you," yet in a sense he knew them, for he knows every man; he knows the wicked as well as the righteous; but there the meaning is, "I never knew you in such a respect as to feel any complacency in you or any favor towards you." See also John 10:14-15, and 2 Timothy 2:19. In Romans 11:2, we read, "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknow," where the sense evidently has the idea of fore-love; and it is so to be understood here. Those whom the Lord looked upon with favor as he foresaw them, he has predestinated to he conformed to the image of his Son. They are, as Paul puts it in his letter to the Ephesians, "predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will.""[/b]

-C.H. Spurgeon "Glorious Predestination" sermon 1043 [url=http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1043.htm]http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1043.htm[/url]

Also a very edifying read is Iain Murray's article on the controversy that took place between the two primary revivalist preachers of the first great awakening, George Whitefield and John Wesley. It can be read here: [url=http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/wesley/murray.htm]http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/wesley/murray.htm[/url] and Whitefield's letters refuting Wesley's blasphemous (that's right, in the sermon, Wesley actually says "VII. Predestination is a doctrine full of blasphemy." and "II. The doctrine of predestination is not a doctrine of God.") sermon "free grace" can be read here: [url=http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil//wesley.htm]http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil//wesley.htm[/url]


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Adam

 2010/2/28 1:45Profile
KingJimmy
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 Re:

Interesting take on the subject from Wesley. Indeed, though I don't agree with everything he said about Romans 8 here, Wesley does bring up something that those who are more Reformed in their theology often miss with this passage. "Predestined" here is not at all being used to say that God eternally decrees some damned and some saved. To say such about this passage is to do violent injustice to it. The Scriptures may teach such elsewhere, but, not in this passage.

In Romans 8 we read God predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son. That is, God had an eternal intent in our salvation: To make us more and more like Jesus, to be fully conformed to His image. In context, that is to life a life freed from sin, freed from the law, free from the power of death, and instead, to live a life free in the power of the Holy Spirit, whereby we are made "more than conquerers" over everything in this world, as we await our bodily resurrection.

That is what Romans 8 teaches... in context. Perhaps Paul teaches what our Reformed brethren insist he does in Romans 9-11. But, he's definitely not teaching what they say he does thus far in Romans 8. To say that he does is to read one's theology into the context of the chapter, and miss Paul's entire point. Not to scorn or provoke to anger my Reformed brethren, but, their deficient reading of this text explains more about the deficiency of their own theological view, which usually has the inability to read "victory over sin" as being the hallmark of the normal Christian life. It's something they have a tendency to violently oppose in the name of the five solas. Depending exactly on what school of thought one embraces, Reformed thought has a tendency to view us as living a life continually enslaved to sin and bondage, instead of giving us a life of Spirit-filled victory, and abundant fruit bearing, as we reflect greater and greater the image of Christ in this life: which is the very purpose we were "predestined" to and "called."


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Jimmy H

 2010/2/28 8:24Profile
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 Re: On Predestination by John Wesley

There is one God and John Wesley is his prophet - William Booth

could not help myself on that one (smile)

this i thought was beautiful.

Quote:
Far be it from us to impute these to the Most High; to measure him by ourselves! It is merely in compassion to us that he speaks thus of himself, as foreknowing the things in heaven or earth, and as predestinating or fore-ordaining them. But can we possibly imagine that these expressions are to be taken literally? To one who was so gross in his conceptions might he not say, "Thinkest thou I am such an one as thyself?" Not so: As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than thy ways. I know, decree, work, in such a manner as it is not possible for thee to conceive: But to give thee some faint, glimmering knowledge of my ways, I use the language of men, and suit myself to thy apprehensions in this thy infant state of existence.


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CHRISTIAN

 2010/2/28 9:37Profile
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 Re:

O that men would praise the Lord for this his goodness; and that they would be content with this plain account of it, and not endeavour to wade into those mysteries which are too deep for angels to fathom!

---

I believe that closing statement of wesley is important. Calvinistic thinking really takes on thinking from God's perspective and not man's. Though through some of scripture God exhorts us to try and think like Him and consider "His ways" but that does not mean we can figure out His perspective and way's of things fully or even grasp 1% of them! We must be content that He is God and we are not. That "His ways are higher then our ways."

All I know is the Scripture emphatically and consistently exhorts for men to "believe" and "repent" and for the gospel to be proclaimed in the entire world. That man is granted a free-will to choose Christ. God of course is involved in the entire process but there is still free-will involved.

Oh that the gospel would not be hindered by such reverse thinking, Oh that all men would come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2010/2/28 9:45Profile









 Re: On Predestination by John Wesley

It's not that God foreknew the specific individuals who would choose good or evil. This has nothing to do with the context of the letter to the Romans. The destinies of specific individuals was not even the question back then. The question was whether the gentiles could receive salvation and not only the Jews.

The concept of God's foreknowledge in regards to salvation is NOT the foreknowledge of what specific individuals will choose. It it the hugely important message that God foreordained and foreknew from the beginning that he would draw the WHOLE WORLD to himself, that fellowship with him would NOT be a racial issue, that men of every nation will be invited into his eternal kingdom. This is what God foreknew. That he would be a Father to the righteous regardless of whether they descend from Jacob, Isaac, Noah, Adam. It is the foreknowledge that he would elect the entire group of the saints as a collective whole. The choice to be a saint is up to each individual. The foreknowledge is regarding the collective election of such people NOT which particular individuals will choose to enter in.

The idea that God foreknows the eternal destinies of individuals before they choose is not even scriptural.

That idea is the source of all the confusion about predestination. There is no need to be stumped by the concept of foreknowledge in scripture because it is referring to God's plan to elect the international body of saints as a whole, not to individually foreknow who goes to heaven or hell. What a stumbling block this idea has been for people.

 2010/2/28 11:29









 Re:

Stay tuned for "Calvinists in the Hands of an Angry God" by Muttonchops Mathers.

 2010/2/28 12:42









 Re:

Hey KingJimmy,

Quote:
In Romans 8 we read God predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son. That is, God had an eternal intent in our salvation: To make us more and more like Jesus, to be fully conformed to His image. In context, that is to life a life freed from sin, freed from the law, free from the power of death, and instead, to live a life free in the power of the Holy Spirit, whereby we are made "more than conquerers" over everything in this world, as we await our bodily resurrection.



I hear this case made all the them. God predestines believers to be conformed to the image of His Son. However, it's says those God has predestinated are those He CALLS. Those He's called are justified. So essentially God is saying the same thing here as he says in Romans 9.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, [b]them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:[/b] and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 2010/2/28 13:09









 Re:

Hey Greg,

I'm a little confused. You came against Calvinist for posting threads on this subject and seemed to want people not to post on this. But you post threads on this very subject. Did things change?

 2010/2/28 13:13
KingJimmy
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Posts: 4419
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 Re:

Quote:

I hear this case made all the them. God predestines believers to be conformed to the image of His Son. However, it's says those God has predestinated are those He CALLS.



Notice, the text does not say this is step 1, step 2, step 3. This text is not an ordo-salutos, as is it is commonly made into being. It does NOT say God predestines, then after doing that, He calls, then after doing that He justifies, and then after that He glorifies. Rather, this text instead of saying the steps God does "next" is telling us the things God does "also." Do you see the difference?

God is the God who predestines us. He also calls us. He also justifies. He also glorifies. Indeed, this should be especially evident in Romans 8:30 where the world "also" appears 3 times. "Also" is different than the non-existent "next" that is read into the text. Those who are saved He does all these "also's" to. I am predestined, I am also called, I am also justified, and I am also glorified. And notice, glorification here is not relegated to merely a future event that is to happen "next." It's a present reality we experience in Christ.

*edited for some typos*


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Jimmy H

 2010/2/28 13:23Profile





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