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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A further work in Christian's life after conversion

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KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Classic Pentecostalism teaches that there is a second work one can receive after one's salvation, whereby the individual is "baptized in the Holy Spirit." Pentecostals believe that when one is saved, one receives the indwelling and renewing work of the Holy Spirit. Later, one can receive the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit, whereby one is empowered by the Holy Spirit for ministry and witnessing. Often the following illustration is used to demonstrate this:

If one were to take a glass of water, and fill it up, this would be an example of one receiving the Holy Spirit at salvation. But if one were to take the same glass, and submerge it in a tank of water, this would represent being baptized in the Holy Spirit. In this, one is said to be "filled to the overflow," whereby the ministry of the Holy Spirit isn't just effecting your personal salvation, but is becoming a stream of living water that makes a difference in the lives of others through you.




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Jimmy H

 2010/3/8 17:56Profile









 Re: The baptism

Classical holiness teaching, which is in opposition to the Pentecostal view, is that the baptism by the HOLY Spirit makes us holy by uniting us with Christ in His death and resurrection where the old man is crucified and is dead, that is out of action and destroyed as the AV puts it. This is the evidence - a pure and holy heart and a dwelling with God face to face.

Unknown languages were spoken at Pentecost but that was specific for the time, where Babel was reversed.

One knows when one has been baptised because of the cleanliness felt within and the heart that praises God 100%. One then can live the overcoming life, filled with joy no mater what the circumstances. The proness to wander has been healed and we are now a pillar in the temple of the Lord God, no more going in and out but staying firm with the abiding presence of God with us.

Brenda

 2010/3/8 19:38
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Classical holiness teaching, which is in opposition to the Pentecostal view...



It should be noted that there are some Pentecostal groups that came out of the holiness camp, and see there being 2 additional works after conversion. They see there being 1) Salvation 2) Sanctification 3) Baptism of the Holy Spirit.


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Jimmy H

 2010/3/8 19:43Profile
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

My biggest thing with Pentecostalism is not really with the beliefs but the individual people I know that act in contradiction to this belief. If Christ be in them wouldn't they be different from the whole world? Of course this is a common consistency in most if not all denominations. I pray that God would bring back the Fear of the Lord on the Pulpits of America and send revival. We have forgotten who we serve a righteous and Holy God.

God Bless,
Matthew


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Matthew Guldner

 2010/3/8 21:46Profile
BeingMolded
Member



Joined: 2009/10/1
Posts: 13
USA

 Re: A further work in Christian's life after conversion

These are all very good posts. I would like to add that after salvation by 'the blood of Jesus Christ cleansing us from all sin" 1John 1:7. God sanctifies us by His Holy Spirit. We have to do our part to stay clean. 2 Cor.7:1..dearly beloved let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. We must cleanse ourselves from every sin of the body and spirit. This means breaking away from every ungodly compromise and continually resisting the desires of the flesh.
We must put to death the sinful deeds of the body. We must hate the very thoughts of sin.Proverbs 8:13"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil". The things of the world we must hate and the things of God we must love with all our heart ,soul, mind, and body. The temptation to sin will not be as great the closer we live to God, because sin will be so horrible to us.


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Decana Espinaton

 2010/3/8 23:34Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3407
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: BeingMolded


Your post was right on!! But this one quote stuck out to me...

Quote:
BeingMolded wrote:
The temptation to sin will not be as great the closer we live to God, because sin will be so horrible to us.


This is just from Lisa's perspective but to me this quote (on the surface) mislead's people.

The sins are diffferent... true, we won't always be plagued by smoke, drink, or cursing but there are so many other sins in our personality that needs to be redeemed that we would be like John, "I must decrease that He would increase" (John 3.30).

This war for territory (in us) is [b]never[/b] over, there are different devils on different levels but it's God who gives the increase over all these if we "love mercy, do justly and walk humbly with our God" all the days of our life (Micah 6.8).

God bless you!!


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Lisa

 2010/3/9 5:38Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
how do you know you have received this second baptism? According to Pentecostals speaking in tongues is the physical evidence of being baptised in the Holy Spirit,



This is Pentecostals, not Bible. The tongues one should really be concerned about is the speech. Read the book of James.)

Quote:
but further study for me is pointing more to the only true evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a changed life



You are right on.

A defining point in whether one is a Christian is how he lives, his character. Is there any evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in this life? Does this person hanker after God and his holiness? People can talk but how do they act? Talk is cheap but holiness is costly. Revelation 2,3 talk about the sins that bedevil Christians which will result in them "having their candle being removed from the lampstand." This list hits pretty close home.

My understanding...

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2010/3/9 8:28Profile









 Re: Holiness groups

KingJimmy

Quote:
It should be noted that there are some Pentecostal groups that came out of the holiness camp, and see there being 2 additional works after conversion. They see there being 1) Salvation 2) Sanctification 3) Baptism of the Holy Spirit.



Do you know which of the holiness groups believed in 2 additional works too? Thanks

Brenda

 2010/3/9 8:54









 Re: A further work in Christian's life after conversion


Hi Wayne,

Just wanted to point out from the KJV, that within Titus 3:5 falls the clause 'by the washing of regeneration', which clearly harks back to both the water and the word (John 15:3; Eph 5:26; Heb 10:22).

To BeingMolded, I would add 1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.



To mguldner, you asked

Quote:
how do you know you have recieved this second baptism?

I don't know if what I'm going to say will make immediate sense, but I want to draw your attention to some distinctions which may assist your Bible study on this topic.

First, regarding 'theology', this word is not in scripture. Theology is a human attempt to codify what can be known about God and His dealings with mankind, by taking information of all kinds (I mean, historical, spiritual, symbolic, etc) off the surface of the pages of scripture, and putting a particular complexion upon them, or interpretation of them.

What we [i]get[/i] from this does not necessarily represent God as accurately as God represents Himself in His written word, or as accurately as He communicates to the understanding through illumination of the written word by the Holy Spirit to the individual reader's/believer's heart. I would encourage you to attend to the latter more intently than the former.

:-)

Also, there is, I believe, a lot of confusion amongst Christians, arising from misinformation about, and misinterpretation of, the slow revelation of God through the Old Testament and the time of Christ's ministry on earth to and through His disciples, which was, incontrovertably unique, and, what it means to 'become a Christian' ever since Pentecost.

Gentiles, also, don't spend nearly enough time thinking about what it was to be Jewish, in the historical context of Christ's appearance on earth, which was the fulfilment of almost (if not) all unfilfilled prophecy until that time; Christ Himself coming as 'that Prophet' referred to by Moses (Deu 18:15) and Peter (Acts 3:22), and taking on many other names attributed to Him by subsequent prophets.

John the Baptist also, introducting baptism in water to the Jews, broke with all tradition that only Gentiles were filthy enough to require this ceremonial introduction to being accepted by God. Thus, the revelation of man's sinfulness was utterly unavoidable by that first wave of 'Christians', as was the need for a completely fresh start, akin to 'being born again' (1 Pet 1:22).

What I'm asking you to consider, really, is the perspective which scripture offers to your salvation (such as Heb 10:14, Rom 8:13, 1 John 5:21, 2 Tim 2:22 and James 4:7), as much as where you actually are in your daily attempt to walk in the light as He is in the light (1 John 1:7).

Without doubt we all have colossal crises in our walks with God, which usher in new eras of deeper fellowship with Him, and perhaps, the awareness of new gifts (graces/charismata) being bestowed, but unless you really never have repented, never have felt washed in His blood, never have felt the enabling and empowering of the Holy Spirit for faith and service, I would say press on and don't be distracted by a search for a second baptism - although you may indeed receive it unexpectedly. Just keep on with 'be being filled with the Holy Spirit' - Eph 5:18 (b).

 2010/3/9 10:55
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2003
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Just wanted to point out from the KJV, that within Titus 3:5 falls the clause 'by the washing of regeneration', which clearly harks back to both the water and the word (John 15:3; Eph 5:26; Heb 10:22).



Forgot that scripture. I stand corrected.

Travis


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Travis

 2010/3/9 12:57Profile





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