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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Is it wrong not to care about race issues?

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 Re: brother Chris

Quote:
It grieves me no end, that while the founding fathers of this great nation were writing the high and mighty words, "All men are created equal", we did not ABOLISH the fell institution of slavery, think about it?



An accurate history of this reveals that slavery was very much an issue of debate even while drafting the US Constitution. Yes, unfortunate and distressing that they did not abolish it right then and there. Absolutely. But let's not make it sound like it was swept under the carpet and ignored. It certainly was not.

Krispy

 2010/2/24 12:58
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Is it wrong not to care about race issues?

Leviticus 25:44-46
"Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, (ie. slaves) which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour."

Quote:
[size=10]Slavery, the institution of slavery, ripping whole families OUT of Africa, which is the theft of people, and bringing them here, selling and tearing families apart, is the equivelant of a Holocaust visited upon Africans. Its just that while the nazis documented their hell unleashed upon the Jewish people with throughness, there was no such documentation of the rape and murder of African slaves in the Americas. It grieves me no end, that while the founding fathers of this great nation were writing the high and mighty words, "All men are created equal", we did not ABOLISH the fell institution of slavery, think about it?[/size]


Curious how strange your words sound when read after the Bible. I am thinking about it, but I do not casually make Emotive judgments. I am not moved one way or another concerning established slavery. As I previously stated, all that concerns me is neglecting to love our neighbor as Christ Jesus so loved us. It is only confusing the matter to equate slavery with malice. For I cannot overlook that slavery is never included among the deeds of sin. If you will raise a cry against sin then you may do so against "the theft of people" (ie. kidnapping) and "the rape and murder" of both slave and free. I do hope you are aware that 'slavery' does not mean the theft of people.

Quote:
[size=10]unfortunate and distressing that they did not abolish [slavery] right then and there.[/size]


Recall, in example of Lev. 25:36, "they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour." Paul sent his Christian brother Onesimus, a slave, back to serve his Christian master, Philemon.

Philemon 1:15-16
"... that you would have him back forever, no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord."

1 Timothy 6:1-2
"Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort."

1 Peter 2:13-19
"Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the slaves of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully."

Colossians 4:1
"[Christian] masters, give unto your slaves that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

Ephesians 6:5-10
"Slaves, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye [Christian] masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him. Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might."


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Jordan

 2010/2/24 21:33Profile
boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
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 Re: Is it wrong not to care about race issues?

With all of that laid out, the question of whether or not it is acceptable for a Christian government to involve itself in the establishment or abolishment of slavery is debatable. As there do not appear to be any passages encouraging that slavery ought to be done. And there are certainly no verses to defend that it ought to never be done. The matter appears to be one of permission. Therefore, what we do find are certain regulations for how masters/slaves ought to behave, if and when it is done.

To refer to the previous verses from Leviticus 25:39-45,

"And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant: But as an hired servant, and as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, and shall serve thee unto the year of jubile: And then shall he depart from thee, both he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return. For they are my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen. Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy God. Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession."

Thus, here we can see how the institution of hired-servants and slaves can be an act of compassion for those who are poor and destitute.


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Jordan

 2010/2/24 22:05Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7426
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 Re: Is it wrong not to care about race issues?

Deleted by poster.


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Sandra Miller

 2010/2/25 8:47Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Greetings all,


BoG,


Quote:
Leviticus 25:44-46
"Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, (ie. slaves) which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour."
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Slavery, the institution of slavery, ripping whole families OUT of Africa, which is the theft of people, and bringing them here, selling and tearing families apart, is the equivelant of a Holocaust visited upon Africans. Its just that while the nazis documented their hell unleashed upon the Jewish people with throughness, there was no such documentation of the rape and murder of African slaves in the Americas. It grieves me no end, that while the founding fathers of this great nation were writing the high and mighty words, "All men are created equal", we did not ABOLISH the fell institution of slavery, think about it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Curious how strange your words sound when read after the Bible.






I think what Neil is addressing is not whether or not God [i]permitted[/i] the Israelites to own slaves, something not only ubiquitous in the ancient world, but also practical on various levels because of the realities of life then, [b]BUT whether or not the form Slavery took and how it was practiced in America was sinfull[/b].


But slavery as an institution and in general, whether nescessary for a time in mans history or even permitted by God among the ancient Israelites was only ever nescessay because of the sinfulness of man, not because it was good.

While God permitted slavery even among His people in the ancient world, was it something that needed to or should have continued for as long as it did, or in 17th century America?

In the passage that you qouted from Leviticus, notice that it says they were permitted to [b]buy[/b] slaves, not to steal(kidnap) persons from their homelands(which is what I think Neil was refering to in saying "ripping whole families OUT of Africa, which is the theft of people".


Manstealing under the same Law was punishable by death.


"And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death."


- Exodus 21:16



Although the same passage said that the children of Israel were permitted to take slaves of foreingers(strangers), they were also commanded to not [b]oppress those that were strangers among them[/b], why? because they too were once strangers, in the land of Egypt(Ex 23:9). They were not allowed to oppress hired servants either(Deut 24:14).


What's more, in the same passage, the children of Israel were forbidden from taking slaves [b]from among their brethren[/b].

"...but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour"

Was the way slavery was practiced in a "Christianised" America of the 17th century, sinfull?



Yes, Paul and Peter do adress the issue of slavery. Their exhortation for slaves to obey their masters is not though a line of demarcation drawn in the sands of history saying that the practice of enslaving others was or is ultimately [b]good[/b]. Their instructions to believing slaves were the spiritual antedotes and balms that were nescessary for them to live under the realities of life in the most godly way and in the way that would most honor God and the Gospel(1Ti 6:1).

Likewise their instructions to believing masters were the same and what would most elevate and lift up a world in bondage and that was accustomed to thriving at the expense of others, and to lead them to what would be most becoming of the Gospel of Christ, Who came to make men free, not enslave them.

And so Paul tells Philemon to recieve his servant that had fled from him, to recieve him(that is, Paul's own bowls he says), to recieve him, this time, not as a servant, but above a servant,

as a brother.




Indeed, the question was, and perhaps for some reading this now, still is, was slavery as it was practised in Christian America for 400 years, nescessary, or sinfull?


Whatever others would wish to remember about Dr King's life, he was not so wrong was he, in dreaming, that one day this nation would rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

...And endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among which the Founders said were: life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness.




Men are not called upon to live in the darkness of the ancient past but in the light of revelation that they themsevles have recieved. And America was and is not ancient Rome nor was she formed in Rome's darkness, but she has had GREAT LIGHT.




I'll close with some of the opening lines of Dr. King's Speech, about that dream, wish you all well:




"Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of captivity.

But one hundred years later, we must face the tragic fact that the Negro is still not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languishing in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. So we have come here today to dramatize an appalling condition.

In a sense we have come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men would be guaranteed the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."























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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2010/2/25 20:20Profile









 Re: well ChrisJD

you sure gave me some hope that i got at least ONE brother out there. Thank you so much and God bless you so richly, chaverim, neil

 2010/2/25 23:19
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Quote:
you sure gave me some hope that i got at least ONE brother out there.


___________________________________________________

Dear Neil

I pray that you know in your heart that you have more then just one brother out there.

with much love for you brother
God bless
maryjane

 2010/2/26 0:47Profile









 God bless you MJ

Quote:
I pray that you know in your heart that you have more then just one brother out there.



Yes! and a sister or two here, Praise the Name of Jesus Messiah.

neil

 2010/2/26 11:28
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re: God bless you MJ

Dear Neil

So glad to hear you say that:) I know your heart has been very heavy for Israel. I just want you to be encouraged and know that we are praying for you brother.

God Bless you and take care
maryjane

 2010/2/26 12:12Profile





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