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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is making a Covenant with a Pastor biblically supported?

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andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

here is where John Piper is the pastor

Bethlehem Baptist Church ,Church Covenant

Author: - Various
Date Given: December 14, 2008
Church Covenant.pdf.1.Having been led, as we believe, by the Spirit of God, to receive Jesus Christ as the Lord, Savior, and, supreme Treasure of our lives, and, on the profession of our faith, having been baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, we do now, in the presence of God, angels and this assembly, most solemnly and joyfully enter into covenant with one another as one body in Christ.
2.We engage, therefore, by the aid of the Holy Spirit, to walk together in Christian love, to strive for the advancement of this church in knowledge, holiness and peace; to promote its spirituality and fruitfulness; to sustain its worship, ordinances, and discipline; to welcome, and test biblically, instruction from the Scriptures by the elders of the church which accords with the of Faith contribute cheerfully and regularly to the support of the ministry, the expenses of the church, the relief of the poor, and the spread of the gospel through all nations.
3.We also engage to maintain family and personal devotions; to educate our children in the Christian faith; to seek the salvation of our kindred and acquaintances; to walk circumspectly in the world; to be just in our dealings, faithful in our engagements, and exemplary in our deportment, to avoid all tattling, backbiting and excessive anger; to seek God’s help in abstaining from all drugs, food, drink, and practices which bring unwarranted harm to the body or jeopardize our own or another’s faith.
4.We further engage to watch over one another in brotherly love; to remember one another in prayer; to aid one another in sickness and distress; to cultivate Christian sympathy in feeling and courtesy in speech; to be slow to take offense, but always ready for reconciliation and mindful of the rules of our Savior to secure it without delay.
5.We moreover engage that when we remove from this place, we will, if possible, unite with a likeminded church where we can carry out the spirit of this covenant.
6.We acknowledge that implicit within this covenant is the consent to be governed by the Relational Commitments that have been officially adopted by the church and that address peacemaking and reconciliation, accountability and church discipline, marriage and divorce, counseling and confidentiality, and the protection of our children.


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andy

 2010/2/16 20:55Profile
Ceri
Member



Joined: 2008/10/17
Posts: 113
Notts. England.

 Re:

I agree with BrotherTom.
A covenant is binding for life and can bring people into unnecessary bondage.
My dad was called all sorts of names by a group for refusing to covenant to pray for a specific length of time every morning for the nation.
As he said to me 'I can pray anytime I feel led of God, and for any length of time no matter how long or short, but he added, 'I could not enter a covenant as I know before God, I would not be able to keep it - so if I cannot keep it - I will not make it in the first place and then will not be guilty of the sin of breaking covenant'

This is why we are told to just let your yes be yes, and your no be no.

I do not like the idea of this covenant as you are giving permission for every aspect of your life to come under scrutiny with the added guilt factor of not living up to mans ideals - This is heavy shepherding and control.

We had a church near us where memnbers had to ask their Pastor permission to go on holiday, to decorate the house, with the Pastor even choosing their colour scheme! where to live or even to sell the house, even the clothes they wore!!

This is where it leads to - complete control and manipulation over the flock, and is the starting of a cult style of living.
It is uneccessary and manipulative control - Gal 4 we are called to be free persons not slaves.
Be indebted to no man.


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Ceri Elaine

 2010/2/17 6:19Profile
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

I do recall one time when my Pastor tried doing this covenant thing with our church to sign a contract thing and I don't believe money was one of the topics of choice, it more intailed a I won't talk about you behind your back if you don't talk about me behind my back clause and what not. Ultimately that covenant has been broken by several in the church including myself and the pastor because (not to use this as an excuse for action) but as Jeremiah puts is in Chapter 9:4 "Beware of your friends; do not trust your brothers. Forevery brother is a deceiver, and ever friend a slanderer." Overall I don't understand the whole contract thing when it will be broken. I do know that God since the contract/covenant thing has convicted me deeply on not the contract but the scriptures themselves, I figure if I am holding true to the scriptures then a contract is unnecessary. God Bless


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Matthew Guldner

 2010/2/17 7:18Profile









 Re: Is making a Covenant with a Pastor biblically supported?

Quote:
Is making a Covenant with a Pastor biblically supported?

I don't believe so.

Try offering the same obligations to God Himself, and if they are valid, He will receive them.

However, remember what David discovered?

Psalm 116

12 [b]What shall I render unto the LORD [i]for[/i]] all his benefits toward me?[/b] 13 [b]I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.[/b]

14 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people. 15 Precious in the sight of the LORD [i]is[/i] the death of his saints. 16 O LORD, truly I [i]am[/i] thy servant; I [i]am[/i] thy servant, [i]and[/i] the son of thine handmaid: thou hast loosed my bonds.

17 I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the LORD. 18 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people, 19 In the courts of the LORD'S house, in the midst of thee, O Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD.

 2010/2/17 9:30
MikeH
Member



Joined: 2006/9/21
Posts: 116


 Re:

Hmmm, I am responsible for a church. As far as I am aware my main responsibility is to feed and care for sheep. Have you ever come across sheep entering into covenants? If the sheep are well fed, with lots of good grass and plenty of water, strengthened and with their wounds bound up, will they need anything else? And as long as I keep pointing them towards the good shepherd, I think I will have done my job to the best of my ability.

The answer to your question, is NO!

Covenants are God's territory. The Father and the Son entered into a covenant, which we call the New Covenant; there was no-one else worthy to covenant. By His grace I have been added to His body and by this process have become a beneficiary of the blessings of this wonderful Covenant between the Father and the Son. My (and everyone's) desire should be that many more can enter into the same blessings by being baptised into His body. What else is there worth covenanting about? - Nothing!

Kind regards

Mike

 2010/2/17 10:04Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: Is making a Covenant with a Pastor biblically supported?

A covenant is an ancient form of a relational based contract that God initiates as well as men. If you live a suburban neighborhood, you probably have a covenant with the home owners association. If you are married, you are in a covenant relationship with one another. David and Jonathan and individuals who made covenants with one another, and they were just friends. And while there is no New Testament example of this being done that I am aware of, I see no harm in it if both parties are in total agreement... like in marriage.

In general, I think covenant making is personally unnecessary, but, Biblically justifiable. It's like oath taking... nothing wrong with oath taking per say... but why the need to take an oath at all? Can't you just let your yes be yes and your no be no?


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Jimmy H

 2010/2/17 11:46Profile
MikeH
Member



Joined: 2006/9/21
Posts: 116


 Re:

King Jimmy wrote

Quote:
It's like oath taking... nothing wrong with oath taking per say...



You might want to consider these words from Matthew :-) I have used the ESV as it brings out the underlying meaning of the verb 'to swear'.

[color=009900]Mat 5:34-37 But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil. (ESV)[/color]

Mike

 2010/2/17 13:21Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

You might want to consider these words from Matthew



Be careful. The Law of Moses permitted oath taking, and indeed, to some degree encouraged it. Jesus and the apostles were not speaking against the taking of oaths, as demonstrated several times in Paul's epistles, where he did such a thing himself, but what they were against was the Pharisaical spin given to oath taking. The Pharisees based the truthfullness of their oath on the sacredness of the object they swore by. Christ was teaching in the Sermon on the Mount that the issue is ultimately one of heart. Because of the character of your heart, your words alone should be enough to settle an issue. If you regularly have to swearing by everything sacred to establish your words... it shows that you have conducted yourself in such a way that your words themselves mean nothing, because you lack character. Your words alone should be sacred, and shouldn't require appeals to heaven to make them such. That is what the Lord was ultimately after. He was not contradicting the Law.


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Jimmy H

 2010/2/17 13:53Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Hmmm, I am responsible for a church. As far as I am aware my main responsibility is to feed and care for sheep. Have you ever come across sheep entering into covenants? If the sheep are well fed, with lots of good grass and plenty of water, strengthened and with their wounds bound up, will they need anything else? And as long as I keep pointing them towards the good shepherd, I think I will have done my job to the best of my ability.

The answer to your question, is NO!



I agree.

The reason I've heard given for the need of Church Covenants is so that the people in the church "know who the church is". So they know who those are who are committed to "their" body. I find absolutley nothing supporting that in the new testament. Kinda like Mike pointed out...I would think that if one is making disciples you wouldn't have to get them to "sign a paper" saying they agree to biblical truths they should already be practicing.

 2010/2/17 15:26









 Re: Is making a Covenant with a Pastor biblically supported?

Quote:
With all the winds of doctrine that are blowing in our culturalized churches, I'd like to know if there's any Scripture or biblical principle that supports for a pastor to ask you to make a covenant with God and him?

Who'd want to?

We have the best covenant that could ever be drawn up, our life hid in Christ and being accepted in the beloved.

What can this Pastor offer that Christ hasn't already supplied?

 2010/2/17 20:54





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