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HidinChrist
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Joined: 2010/1/26
Posts: 1


 Is making a Covenant with a Pastor biblically supported?

With all the winds of doctrine that are blowing in our culturalized churches, I'd like to know if there's any Scripture or biblical principle that supports for a pastor to ask you to make a covenant with God and him?

 2010/2/16 11:16Profile
sojourner7
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Joined: 2007/6/27
Posts: 1573
Omaha, NE

 Re: Is making a Covenant with a Pastor biblically supported?

If you make a study of covenants in scripture;
you will find they begin with GOD. GOD initiates
the promises, when we keep His Word and His truth
they are met and fulfilled.
The question should be: is what the pastor is
asking you to covenant to biblicaly sound and
supported ??


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Martin G. Smith

 2010/2/16 12:32Profile
jlosinski
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Joined: 2006/9/11
Posts: 294
North Pole, Alaska

 Re: Is making a Covenant with a Pastor biblically supported?

I agree about covenants being initiated by God, I was just reading Genesis 15 when God made a covenant with Abraham, who was sleeping after waiting presumably for hours after dividing the animals. Give it a read. Also, this is just a off the cuff thought, but every time a covenant has been initiated by God, it will never be broken by Him. Can the pastor say the same?

 2010/2/16 12:40Profile
jlosinski
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Joined: 2006/9/11
Posts: 294
North Pole, Alaska

 Re:

Oh yeah, also, I don't think there is a scriptural example of this type of thing in 1-2 Timothy or Titus. I'm assuming that you are referring to somthing that Rick Warren has done in the past as far as covenanting with him about being active in the church? If so, I think that's more of a church discipline issue rather than a covenant.

 2010/2/16 12:51Profile
andres
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Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:


"Can the pastor say the same?"
A Pastor cannot say the same because he is not God.
However a in a church covenant each party has responsiblites that they strive to follow. Church Covenant's between the Congregation and the Elders gives an understanding to each party in what the expectations are between the members and the elders. When someone continuely breaks the covenant, then true dicipline may follow..
I dont see the harm in it and if you dont like the stipulations of the covenant dont do it.If the Pastor is abusive then why even do it.


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andy

 2010/2/16 13:00Profile









 Re: Is making a Covenant with a Pastor biblically supported?

Let me take a wild guess: you ask this question because a certain pastor wants you to make a covenant to give money to him and God? In other words, you give him the money and he will pass it along to God? Well, you don't need a biblical basis. If a professional clergyman says it, it is true. A man who loves Jesus so much that he is willing to make money off His gospel is obviously trustworthy.

 2010/2/16 13:43









 Re: Is making a Covenant with a Pastor biblically supported?

by HidinChrist on 2010/2/16 7:16:06

"With all the winds of doctrine that are blowing in our culturalized churches, I'd like to know if there's any Scripture or biblical principle that supports for a pastor to ask you to make a covenant with God and him?"

........................................................

There are scriptures like "submit unto those who have the rule over you...", and "give double honor to those who rule well..."


But in general , NO....our COVENANT is only with God. " THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN IS CHRIST!".... and even in marriage to the wife....."Submit to your husband IN THE LORD."


Hebrews 13:17
"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you."

There is a great chasm between "obeying" our God given shepherds, and submitting to them in their lordship role. I came out of the 70's, and our fellowship fell under the SHEPHERDING MOVEMENT. We had our finances scrutinized, with mandatory tithing, our relationships monitored, with only approved courtships and marriages, and other rigid controls, such as approval for travel, etc.


In the end, it was utter destruction and devastation. People were hurt, and left to bleed when they failed the "covenant" test. Love vanished, and submission was everything.It proved to be a miserable, fleshy failure.


I met a man who travelled Nationally for John Wimber in the height of the Vineyard movement...[ about 700 churches..] as a trouble shooter; ministering to deep wounds, near divorces, blow outs; etc.


We talked about this very issue, [ covenant submission ]. He said that in his opinion, nothing he had ever seen was so destructive as this. It operated quickly and effectively, to separate souls from God's grace, leaving a wake of souls destroyed.



It left deep scars upon me, because what I effectively did was give my faith to a man. Humans are only called to have faith in ONE who has unlimited grace and love, and understanding. This is not a man, nor could it ever be. I recovered, but some didn't.

ACTS 20


29. "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

30. and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw the disciples after themselves."

2 Peter 2:3 (King James Version)

3. "And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."




WHY DO MEN WANT YOU TO MAKE A CONENANT WITH YOU?..... TO USE YOU, AND GAIN POWER OVER YOU, FOR THEIR OWN GAIN.

REVELATION 2

15."So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans."

6. "Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."

Jesus despises the teaching and deeds of the Nicolaitans. This is a transliteration meaning Lords over my people, or Kings over the lay...[ the little people..]

It is a disgusting and unbrotherly spirit, that demands power and respect for a clergy class, over the brother class within the church. It is not from God, and never make any kind of a covenant with a man.



This is the same word that Jesus spoke about making an oath, or SWEARING. We should never swear allegiance to anyone but the One who is worthy. God never fails; man will always fail you.

 2010/2/16 15:59
andres
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Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

" God never fails; man will always fail you."


amen....(that makes so much sense, in every aspect of God's plan for the Salvation of sinful men)


First, dont throw the baby out with the bath water. In Marriage we make a covenant with our partner, almost half end in divorce (In america), should we stop the institution of marrige because of bad experiances?

Second, we dont know what the pastor is asking Him to do? Usually churches with covenants have membership. Mabey the Pastor is saying " to be a member of this Church you have to strive to live a godly life... we expect members to act like.....to love.... agree to the statement of faith...." whats wrong with asking people who attend "Church" to live a certain way.. ( again if thats what he is asking?)
or mabey he is like your old psator in which case he should run away and not look back...
andy
( sorry you had to go thru that)


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andy

 2010/2/16 17:27Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re: Is making a Covenant with a Pastor biblically supported?

Hi HidinChrist...

I don't know if your pastor is using a "covenant" as a "contract" -- or something more. God has made covenants with men. Those are God-ordained and entirely valid. Even the "marriage covenant" (Malachi 2:14) is actually a covenant created and affirmed by God.

Contracts, on the other hand, are something entirely different. As a believer, you should always honor your word and live as an honest man. However, our Lord warned against taking oaths -- which are rhetorical contracts and promises. In fact, the Lord stated in the Sermon on the Mount: "[i]But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil[/i]" (Matthew 5:37). The NIV reads, "[i]Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one[/i]" (Matthew 5:37 NIV).

I suppose that I would have trouble with ANY pastor who feels so sure of himself or his own plans whereas to force the yoke of a "covenant" upon the congregation in which he is supposed to be serving. Creating a "covenant" with them is certainly extra-biblical and smells a little bit like authoritarianism. God has called us to serve the Body of Christ...period. The foundation for that service is in the covenant that God made with us...and not some earthly contract.


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Christopher

 2010/2/16 20:03Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re: Loingirder

Quote:
Loingirder wrote:
Let me take a wild guess: you ask this question because a certain pastor wants you to make a covenant to give money to him and God?


LOLOL I thought the EXACT same thing!!

I know an assistant pastor that left a local church here (and the pastor asked him to leave) because he wouldn't sign a "covenant" to only pay his tithes to that particular church. Talk about micro-managing someone elses money!!!

I have a question for anybody, somebody... Does anyone have an example of just ONE pastor asking their church to make a covenant with him that [b]does not[/b] involve money? I, for one, would really like to know!

God bless you, HidinChrist; and you will not offend "God" if you do not enter into this so-called covenant!


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Lisa

 2010/2/16 20:15Profile





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