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murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:
And Paul was (really spiritually) alive when he didn't know the commandments of the law, but when he heard of that specific commandment ("You shall not covet." v.7), then his affections became known as unlawful, and he died spiritually (because he kept doing that which I had affection toward)



What don't you know the verse Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

So you are saying you are born perfect--righteous..

The phrase in Romans 5:12, "And thus death spread to all men" can be translated into more modern English as, "When death entered the race, it went throughout." It means death indiscriminately affected all because all sinned.

In Galatians 3:22, Paul adds another picture to the Bible's teaching of the universality of sin. "But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." "The Scripture" is the Old Testament; it is man's jailer, condemning and confining him because he has sinned.

"Man" in the Greek Scriptures is huph hamartian, man under sin. This means he is under the power of, in subjection to, under the control of or dependent upon, sin. Sin holds man under its authority.

Quote:
When we are saved, we should have already put off the old man and put on the new man The "old man" would be the person that Paul (or us) was before salvation.



Who is Paul talking to in Ephesians 1:1 to the saints at Ephesus who are also faithful and loyal and steadfast in Christ Jesus. Please note they are not unbelivers

So we have established who Paul is writing we look at (AMP)Ephesians 4:22 Strip yourselves of your former nature [put off and discard your old unrenewed self] which characterized your previous manner of life and becomes corrupt through lusts and desires that spring from delusion

Paul writing to these Saints in Ephesus teaches them that they should put off and discard your old unrenewed self.

Colonel Milton Agnew of The Salvation Army laments, “Oh, that the believer might at that time discover the deliverance that is possible by crucifying the old
man - the old I!

If all Christians are potentially crucified with Christ on the Cross, they are there in fact only when they place themselves there. [b]“How many thousands of Christians have never faced the fact of the necessity of being crucified with Christ! They remain self-centered, shallow, defeated Christians”[/b]

Roms 6:6 Is about the judical aspect of our salavation not the experiential..

When Paul says that our old man was crucified with Christ he means THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE IN ADAM. It's a judical reckoning of God that the old man was once and for all put away.

So we need to experience this deliverance which is ours judically which will take us from being the wrecthed man of Roms 7 into more than a conueror in chapter 8

Put of the Old man and put on the new man which is Christ.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2010/2/10 17:44Profile









 Re:

Jesus doesn't allow his followers to sin.

"..I have not found thy works perfect before God. ..repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

 2010/2/10 18:11
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Double Post

 2010/2/10 21:27Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
murrcolr asked:
What don't you know the verse Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, even as through one man, sin entered into the world, and through sin death; and in the way just indicated, death passed through into all mankind, on all whom had sinned."
The term “therefore” shows us that Paul is still writing about justification by faith. He is not starting a new subject about “original sin” or “sin nature”

Let's break it down:
"as by one man, sin entered into the world";
Just that, nothing more.
The first transgression was introduced into the world by Adam. Nothing more must be read into this.

"[b\]and through sin, death[/b] (entered into the world because of Adam)
Spiritual death comes to all who choose to sin, just as Adam chose to sin.
Physical death came by Adam being cut off from the tree of life, therefore we are cut off.

Spiritual death is from our own, personal sin from our age of accountability. No one dies spiritually because of anyone esles sin; we are not born spiritually dead.

Physical death is not a judgment of sin, but only a consequence of being cut off from the Tree of Life.

"[b]so also death passed to all men,[/b]"
Because of this next part of the verse…

"[b]on all whom had sinned.[/b]"
Spiritual death passed to all who sin (not by birth).
[b]Death passed to all men who sinned[/b], but not to the extent that in the future people have already sinned "in Adam" .

Spiritual death passes only to all who sin because a moral, intentional choice of sin has been made. God cannot have fellowship with those who reject Him, those who are in sin must be separated from God, and therefore, they are spiritually dead in their sins, which is a choice to disobey.
It is to be “alienated from the life of God, because of the willful ignorance that is in them, because of hardening of their heart [which is always willful]” (Eph. 4:18), that is, alienated from a relationship with God (John. 17:3).

Quote:
So you are saying you are born perfect--righteous..

Not just me, but all mankind.
No one sins before they’re born, therefore we are born innocent, which means that we are born righteous.

Righteous means to be in right standing with God.
If one hasn't sinned yet and innocent, then he is still in right standing with God.

Being born "Perfect"?
Yes, I had 10 fingers & 10 toes, 2 eyes...etc...

Quote:
In Galatians 3:22, Paul adds another picture to the Bible's teaching of the universality of sin. "But the Scripture has confined all under sin that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." "The Scripture" is the Old Testament; it is man's jailer, condemning and confining him because he has sinned.

Galatians 3:22 is to be interpreted as the law proving of their sin/disobedience & God gave the law to convict men of their sin so they may repent and receive mercy.

God has proven them to be under sin (disobedience) by the law, and the sin is the evidence which God uses against them.
The law was added because of transgressions, it exists for the reason of making unlawful affections to be evidently unlawful.
In other words, the law exists so that our unlawful affections would be evidently more wicked in contrast to the specific commands of the law (Romans 7:13).

The purpose of the law is to teach one of the character of the Lawgiver also to guide us and to guard us while directing us to mercy of the Lawgiver (Galatians 3:19,24).

• The law guides by showing us the boundary.
• The law guards us by the Justice of it and by penalties of breaking it.
• The law directs us by conviction of guilt that we may seek forgiveness.

Let’s put this in context:
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture embraces everyone in a common subjection to be under sin (disobedience), so that the promise (of righteousness) through faith in Jesus Christ is given to those who believe (as Abraham did).
(See Romans 11:32)

Galatians 3:23 But before the coming of faith, we were guarded under Law, having been embraced in that common subjection (the subjection spoken of in verse 22) to direct us to the faith that is being revealed.

Galatians 3:24 So that the Law has become to us a guide & guard, directing us to Christ so that we might be justified by faith.

Quote:
"Man" in the Greek Scriptures is huph hamartian, man under sin. This means he is under the power of, in subjection to, under the control of or dependent upon, sin. Sin holds man under its authority.

Don't you Know that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness (Rom 6:16)?

We have a choice of being under sin or not.

However, in Galatians 3:22 with the context being the law as proof for being "under sin", we are under the [b]verdict[/b] of sin because the law convicts us.
The verdict being, "guilty"
Therefore, what you said is not meaning.

Quote:
Quote:
When we are saved, we should have already put off the old man and put on the new man The "old man" would be the person that Paul (or us) was before salvation.

Who is Paul talking to in Ephesians 1:1 to the saints at Ephesus who are also faithful and loyal and steadfast in Christ Jesus. Please note they are not unbelievers

They were Christians who had behavior in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind (Eph 2:3), being in time past Gentiles [/b]in the flesh[/b] (Eph 2:11), without Christ (Eph 2:12), who, from now on [b]should be not be[/b] children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (Eph 4:14), that they should speak the truth in love (Eph 4:15), and that they must no longer walk as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind...etc.. (Eph 4:22)

Since Paul tells them to not walk as other Gentiles walk, they should put off concerning [b]their former [u]way[/u] of life[/b] the old man which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts (Eph 4:22)

Quote:
So we have established who Paul is writing we look at (AMP)Ephesians 4:22 Strip yourselves of your former nature

NO!!!
It does not say "former [b]nature[/b]".
It is either "behavior", "conversation", or "way of life".

There is nothing about our nature.

Quote:
Paul writing to these Saints in Ephesus teaches them that they should put off and discard your old un-renewed self.

Colonel Milton Agnew of The Salvation Army laments, “Oh, that the believer might at that time discover the deliverance that is possible by crucifying the old
man - the old I!

And how might they do this?
According to you, they can't.
They can't even if they do their "best".

Quote:
Rom 6:6 Is about the judicial aspect of our salivation not the experiential..

Who says?

Quote:
When Paul says that our old man was crucified with Christ he means THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE IN ADAM. It's a judicial reckoning of God that the old man was once and for all put away.

No, it is a personal aspect.
Paul is saying that [b]our[/b] (each one of our's, not the whole human race's) old man was crucified with Christ....that we should no longer serve sin.

Just as Jesus had died and raised, we must reckon the same also; ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, and alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Then it goes onto say that we have a duty (which we are able to disobey). The duty of Rom 6:12-13.

Rom 6:16 tells us that we choose whom our master is.
Quote:
So we need to experience this deliverance which is ours judicially which will take us from being the wretched man of Rom 7 into more than a conqueror in chapter 8

Put of the Old man and put on the new man which is Christ.

The New Man is not actually Christ. The New Man is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Christ.

Not as a saint all the way through, but from a sinner to a saint.

 2010/2/10 21:27Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Oops, double post.

 2010/2/10 21:27Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Oops, tripple post.

 2010/2/10 21:27Profile
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343


 Re:

I've grown tired of 'trying' to be a Christian.

Tired of 'trying' to stir up emotions in my heart towards God that aren't there.

Tired of 'trying' to act like somebody I am not.

Tired of 'trying' to obey the commandments.

Isn't there something more to Christianity than all this 'trying'?

If all Christianity = effort and 'trying' I don't want it.


_________________
Sba

 2010/2/11 3:22Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Mt. 11:28-30 Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and My burden is light.

Most interpret these verses to refer to the good way of salvation and the rest in Him that is found from acts of sin and the ensuing guilt. Actually, as well as this it refers to a little-known better way to walk with God.

This way is better because it has been made free from all the just mentioned "carnal labor and heavy worldly weight". You do not find this better way by getting something more than the New Man, but by getting rid of something that is old.

Even though you are saved and all your previous acts of sin are forgiven, the foundational defiling sinfulness of the fallen heart remains covertly intact. All your acts of sin, both past and future have their root in a basic corruption that is still quietly hidden within your heart of hearts. Any new acts of sin are manifestations of what was already hidden in seed-form within the heart.

Pardon is the remedy for new acts of sin, but there can be no covering or excuse for the heart that is just continuing to be its own perverse natural-born self. It is not an act of sin for your heart to be the way it was born to be, so the only remedy for it is to willingly crucify it on the cross with Christ. Such an unworthy heart is both unavoidable and unlawful since by nature it is not enabled to obey the ten commandments (with will-power you manfully resist, but the unlawful urge remains), and therefore the only cure is to be cleansed from it.

Now once that unworthy hidden world of sinfulness is gone, what is left? You are. The Holy Spirit is. But your heart is now unhindered from the fall and set free to be as Godly as you wish it to be. No pollution means no distance from Him.

There's a link below to help you get on the way.....

[url=http://www.enterhisrest.org/]Enter His Rest[/url]


_________________
Colin Murray

 2010/2/11 7:21Profile
Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Quote:
I've grown tired of 'trying' to be a Christian.

Tired of 'trying' to stir up emotions in my heart towards God that aren't there.

Tired of 'trying' to act like somebody I am not.

Tired of 'trying' to obey the commandments.

Isn't there something more to Christianity than all this 'trying'?

If all Christianity = effort and 'trying' I don't want it.



Hey brother, I've kept you in mind since the last time we talked and have prayed for you. I can identify and say amen with all that you're feeling. I want to encourage you that many others here on this site and throughout history have wrestled with the same things. It's okay. In fact, to a degree it's normal. Just look at this way, replace that word 'trying' with this: having Christ formed in you (Gal. 4:19). It's not so much you trying, as Jesus being formed. It's a process and a journey to have the God-Man come alive and be developed in you. Settle in your heart and mind He is the only way and say to hell with 'trying' something else or giving up. Draw your line, my friend, in the sand and say, "Come what may come, I'm with Jesus and I won't be dissuaded by my seeming unresponsiveness or inauthenticity." Read Luther's testimony, how he wrestled for years over his salvation. Read Brainerd, my friend, read Brainerd. He will show you a walk of salvation that has the darkest and most depressing lows where he sees himself as the most vile and repulsive, undeserving sinner. Understand this is part of the walk of Christianity. It's not something you're trying; it's something you're becoming...and it takes time.

As a note, 'trying' to stir up emotions is biblical. Everytime the psalmist says "Bless the Lord O my soul," he is commanding his soul, whether it wants to or not, to be praise and worship God. So my brother, don't give up on stirring yourself up.


_________________
Paul

 2010/2/11 10:39Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Luke 13:24 [b]Strive[/b] to enter in at the narrow gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Hebrews 4:11 Let us [b]labor[/b] therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Remember your name!!!
[b]IWantAnguish[/b]
I Want Anguish
As If you ask God for this.

You want to be inflict with distress.
Psalm 119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept your word.
Psa 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn your statutes.
Psa 119:75 I know, O LORD, that your judgments are right, and that [b]in your faithfulness have afflicted me[/b].
Psa 119:107 I am afflicted very much: revive me, O LORD, according unto your word.

This one has great wisdom:
Psalm 30:6 And in my prosperity I said, I shall never be moved.
*Have you felt that you were strong?

Psalm 30:7 LORD, by your favor you have made my mountain to stand strong: you did hide your face, and I was troubled.
*But now, it seems that you have come to a mountain in your life which is impassable.
Where no prayer can "cast it into the see" (Mat 21:21) because it was [b]not[/b] put there by the enemy, but by God Himself, He has made it to stand strong.

Psalm 30:8 I cried to you, O LORD; and unto the LORD I made supplication.
*You come to Sermonindex for help as if crying to the Lord with your supplication

Quote:
God, I need grace.
Every day my perceived reality about myself becomes more and more despondent.



Psalm 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise you? shall it declare your truth?
*The thought which you came to:
Quote:
If all Christianity = effort and 'trying' I don't want it.

Now, what profit is there in turning away from the truth?
Shall the dust praise God?
Shall it declare God’s truth?

Psalm 30:10-12 Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be my helper.
:11 You have turned for me my mourning into dancing: you have put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;
:12 To the end that my glory may sing praise to you, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto you forever.
* There have been people on this forum praying for you that Psalm 30:10-12 becomes reality for you.

Now, you’re in the right position for God to work, because His grace is sufficient for you: for His strength is made perfect in weakness!!! (2Co 12:7-10)
In other words, He is the Strongest when we can't do anything about it.
When I say that "we can't do anything", I mean from the mind-set of the flesh (Rom 8:5-8), we all have without submission to His spirit.

Now, what is the mind-set of the flesh?
It is self-gratification.
It is anything which is opposed to selflessness or self-depravation.

What is the mind-set of the spirit?
It is selflessness or self-depravation.
It means to be submitted to his spirit.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free set free from law of sin & law of death (Rom 8:2).

Now, the “law of sin” is the demands of our own fleshly desires & affections against known law that bring us in opposition to God which separates us from Him.

Our desire is to abuse our autonomy which God created us in.
We want to have our own government which we create for ourselves.
However, For us to stay in a relationship with God through Christ (John 17:3), we must govern ourselves with God's ways, laws & such.

The “law of sin & of death” includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
Remember this, for it is important to remember!

[b]Question[/b]:
Do you [b]try[/b] not to cheat on your wife?
[b]No[/b], there is no need to "try" because you naturally don't cheat on your wife [b]because you love her[/b].
This is your answer.
Love is selflessness or self-depravation.
Love causes you to forget yourself.
Love causes selflessness or self-depravation.

Rom 8:4 The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
* what does it mean to "walk after the Spirit"

[b]Love[/b] is the fulfilling of the law (Rom 13:10).
Rom 13:8 Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law.

Philip 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vain glory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves.

1Thes 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Humility is not difficult; there is no need to [b]try[/b] to be humble. All you need to do is love others more than yourself.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I (Jesus) have loved you, that you also love one another.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That you love one another, as I have loved you.
*This replaces:
You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Mat 22:39).

Pray that God fill you with LOVE!!!
Love is effortless; this is what you want.
You want effortless Christianity.

 2010/2/11 11:18Profile





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