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whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic, doesn't Scripture describe the conscience of the unsaved as "evil".

 2010/2/2 13:13Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme asked:
Logic, doesn't Scripture describe the conscience of the unsaved as "evil".

[b]Heb 10:22[/b] [color=#990000]Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an [b]evil conscience[/b], and our bodies washed with pure water.[/color]
There is no other "evil conscience" in Scripture.

This "evil conscience" is not from the Greek word "κακός - kak-os'", but from the word "ponēros" which refers to the meaning of bad.
The Greek word "kakos" would be the literal "depraved", "wicked" or "evil".

The unsaved would have a "bad conscience" which condemns them because they know that they have disobeyed it while they had the ability to obey it.

One's conscience wouldn't condemn them if they had no ability to do contrary to what they know is right.
Furthermore, if they had a true disability (which they did not personally cause) to do that which is right, they would be exempt from the obligation.

 2010/2/2 14:49Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic, your explanation of the meaning of poneros stops shTransliteration. See Strong's 2(b) below which justifies the KJV use of the word "evil" for the concience.



ponēros
Pronunciation

po-nā-ro's (Key)


Part of Speech
adjective

Root Word (Etymology)

From a derivative of πόνος (G4192)

TDNT Reference
6:546,912
Vines
View Entry


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) full of labours, annoyances, hardships

a) pressed and harassed by labours

b) bringing toils, annoyances, perils; of a time full of peril to Christian faith and steadfastness; causing pain and trouble

2) bad, of a bad nature or condition

a) in a physical sense: diseased or blind

b) in an ethical sense: evil wicked, bad
ort.


 2010/2/2 15:24Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme said:
Logic, your explanation of the meaning of poneros stops shTransliteration. See Strong's 2(b) below which justifies the KJV use of the word "evil" for the concience.

2) bad, of a bad nature or condition
a) in a physical sense: diseased or blind

b) in an ethical sense: evil wicked, bad
ort.


If your conscience is condemning you (because you disobeyed it), you have an evil conscience.

 2010/2/2 15:33Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3396
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Who was Jesus addressing in Mathew 5?

Quote:
By silo
I'm just wondering when Jesus told the people to 'cut off there right hands if it causes them to sin'...was he talking to believers or non-believers?

Matthew 5:30


Just a couple of good natured questions...

Why would Jesus tell a non-believer / sinner to cut off his right hand if it caused them to sin? Aren't they ALREADY perishing? And why would a non-believer even care what Jesus was trying to say?

I'm just wondering too!!

God bless...


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Lisa

 2010/2/2 15:38Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic said:

If your conscience is condemning you (because you disobeyed it), you have an evil conscience.

I would think an evil conscience is one that, as the Bible says, calls evil good and calls good evil. If your conscience condemns you for acting disobediently, then by the very terms, that conscience wouldn't be evil but rather good.

 2010/2/2 15:54Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Lysa asked:
Why would Jesus tell a non-believer / sinner to cut off his right hand if it caused them to sin? Aren't they ALREADY perishing?

If they "cut off their right hand" or, in other words, "stop sinning in that area of their life" they would not longer be perishing; that is figuring that they need not to "pluck out their eye" also.

Quote:
And why would a non-believer even care what Jesus was trying to say?

All who were there listening were believers.

 2010/2/2 16:03Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme said:
I would think an evil conscience is one that, as the Bible says, calls evil good and calls good evil.

[b]Isaiah 5:20[/b] Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

This is not about the conscience, but of perversion & corruption; who will be, if not already, given over to a debased mind.


Quote:
If your conscience condemns you for acting disobediently, then by the very terms, that conscience wouldn't be evil but rather good.

Yes, good in that it is working properly, the way it should & not seared, as with a hot iron.
But if you have a "bad conscience" it implies that you have disobeyed it.

What comes to mind when you hear someone say, "I have a bad conscience about this."?

A London psychologist once told Billy Graham that seventy percent of the people in mental hospitals in England could be released if they could find forgiveness. Their problem was a [b]bad conscience[/b] and they could gain no relief from the guilt and pressure under which they lived.

Here is a psalm of a bad conscience:
When I kept silence, my bones grew old through my groaning all the day long. For day and night your hand was heavy upon me: my strength is turned into the drought of summer. Selah ([b]Psalm 32:3-4[/b]).

This is being relieved from a bad conscience:
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto you, and my iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah

 2010/2/2 16:24Profile
Giggles
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Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

I would recommend "Studies in the Sermon on the Mount" by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. He has a great interpretation and exposition on each verse.

On the proper paradigm for interpreting the SOTM, he reflects:

"What is of supreme importance is that we must always remember that the SOTM is a description of character and not a code of ethics or morals. It is not to be regarded as law - a kind of new "Ten Commandments" or set of fules and regulations which are to be carried out by us - but rather as a description of what we Christians are meant to be, illustrated in particular aspects."


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Paul

 2010/2/2 18:26Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Who was Jesus addressing in Mathew 5?

Quote:
I'm just wondering when Jesus told the people to 'cut off there right hands if it causes them to sin'...was he talking to believers or non-believers?



Actually I believe he is speaking to both because both can live under the bondage of the Old Covenant, trying to please God in the flesh. Jesus is saying that all such people must repent and confess that they are no longer in control. We mess up everything we put our hands to, we must ask Him to cut off all dependence on our eyes, hands, and feet - our fleshly ways of trying to please Him. The Spirit must do the cutting; the call is to both the believer and unbeliever to trust Christ for this.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2010/2/2 19:20Profile





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