SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : A Response to Contacting of Ministers before Criticizing their Teachings by Paul West

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re: motive and heart


Diotrophes, the heretic with the original Papist ambition, was called out by the apostle John.


9. "I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say.

10.For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.

11.Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God."


Paul the Apostle wrote to his faithful protege Timothy a similar command to a couple of heretics.

Hymenaeus and Philetus...
2 Timothy 2

16. "But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some."


This has always been a holy function of the leaders of God's people, from the very beginning, through all the prophets, the Lord, the Apostles, through to today.


The problem comes when doctrinal differences and petty whims are substituted in place of the HERESY, to justify position or power. Slaughter the flock; save our ministry. We announce heresy upon those we disagree with, to justify our dogma; our doctrinal stance. Everything from the rapture, once saved always saved, to pre-trib to post trib, Calvinism to Charismatica, [ to name but a few..] IS VIOLENTLY OPPOSED BY SOMEONE, TO THE POINT OF PRONOUNCING HERESY UPON EVERYONE ELSE!


This is precisely the reason the Pharisee's, the religious leaders of the day, murdered Jesus. "If we let Him continue, the Roman's will come and remove the Nation, and OUR PLACE. They could care less about their nation, except within the context that it provided them power, and of course, they DID murder Jesus out of their plot, and attempted to murder Lazarus also; the undeniable witness that Jesus was indeed God, and their Messiah.


I wouldn't want to be in their shoes on the Great Day of the Lord. Yes, we should be careful not to accuse those upon the same path as we, with differences, but at the same time we must be diligent, as the Apostles and Prophets have always been, to stand against the "damnable Heresies", like Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, and deceivers and liars like Todd Bentley and his supporters.


Are our hearts right, to protect the people of God, and proclaim truth?...for the glory of Jesus?..or is it for our own self righteousness or promotion that we stand?

 2010/1/29 13:15









 Re: MARTYRS



Let us not forget that the martyrs of old...those burnt alive and tortured, All stood against Tyranny and heresies...which inevitably unite with INDIVIDUALS in every generation.

There is great glory given to the Lord when a brother or sister stands for the truth, and inevitably for the Body of Christ against Satan as the heretic.


It is part of the war against the saints that he will rage until the Lord puts an end to him.

 2010/1/29 13:22
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re:

You are right brothertom, but I would think that Paul, etc. went in some way first and confronted the error before exposing it. There is a procedure with those in ministry or not. It is for us to make sure even this is done in a correct biblical pattern.


_________________
KLC

 2010/1/29 13:47Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I wouldn't want to be in their shoes on the Great Day of the Lord. Yes, we should be careful not to accuse those upon the same path as we, with differences, but at the same time we must be diligent, as the Apostles and Prophets have always been, to stand against the "damnable Heresies", like Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, and deceivers and liars like Todd Bentley and his supporters.

I think what Paul West was referring to was these groups and their ministry that we are to leave alone.

There is a fine line here that is difficult to decipher. We are to rebuke but it's within the body of Christ. We know that Mormonism is not Christian, why rebuke it? Only if it's coming into our ranks that we should lift up a standard against it. They believe they are doing a work for God and the Lord is saying, "leave them alone". Don't get all tangled up in what they believe and fighting with them, "You Follow Me", let the dead bury their dead.

There will be times by the Spirit that we will rebuke those that are not in the body, but those times are rare.

 2010/1/29 16:38
Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Also, consider that both Paul and John had direct, apostolic ties with those to whom they wrote these things. They were shepherds and overseers of these people. Whereas on an internet forum, there is likely no one here under another's spiritual authority and covering. Therefore the critical love factor and relational intimacy for the hearers that these men had for the churches they planted and oversaw, is most likely not present.

And as has been mentioned, the apostles usually rebuked only when they confronted or had confronted the heretical party directly. Here on the internet boards that's not likely to have happened, and even if it has, the same authority to rebuke would not be there because they'd be outside of their sphere of authority.

And then there's character. Paul and John (and for this post's sake Brother West) have proven their integrity and maturity by demonstrating a long lifestyle of holiness, purusit of the Lord, and ability to lead and guide. On the forums this is absent from 99% of the people that step into this rebuking role. They have either:

a) 10 posts or less and decide they are going to straighten out the Church

b)many posts but have demonstrated a lack of character, always criticizing everything, always the antagonists, always straining for the gnat with no one meeting the high, holy standard; they alone, like Elijah, are "the last true follower of God left"

or c)again many posts but are missing the crucial love for both the hearer AND whom they are rebuking; they lift the skirts of these false prophetes in the wrong, often carnal, spirit done in the name of holiness and discernment and for the life of the Church; they usually only want to make a name for themselves or give the appearance of a watchman though they probably lack a flock of their own; they want only to tear down not to build up; only to root out, never to plant; these are people that have usually heard too much teaching and have not the depth of relationship with the Lord to be able to wield it effectively and with the power of the Spirit; the list could go on and on.

We see Jesus highlight the 2 things necessary to speak in these matters:

"Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?" John 8:46

1. The pure conscience and equally clean character
2. To actually be speaking words of truth.

The man has to match his message. Often these criticisms are rehashes of rehashes of smear campaign stuff that the finger-pointer has never witnessed first hand. Anyhoo, I've probably said too much myself here. God bless.


_________________
Paul

 2010/1/29 18:12Profile









 Re:

"and as has been mentioned, the apostles usually rebuked only when they confronted or had confronted the heretical party directly. Here on the internet boards that's not likely to have happened, and even if it has, the same authority to rebuke would not be there because they'd be outside of their sphere of authority." giggles

This site is for those seeking the truth. You can debate doctrine all you want but people who may feel uncomfortable with a ministry may find out why, here. I did. I was up in the prosperity movement and prophetic movement for awhile. When I felt weird about it all I was guided to some ministries, including Paul Washer, Tozer, Ravenhill, Carter Conlon, Jim Cymbala and the like. They walked the talk so to speak. They weren't preaching signs, wonders, prosperity, and the like. I began understanding those who truly care about their sheep. The Roman Catholic church has been deceiving for many generations, I grew up in it and my parents and some sibs are still deceived. What seems to be so obvious to us in the Protestant Church seems to be elusive in the Catholic church. I remember going to a 'Marian apparition' gathering back in the late 80's in Florence KY. False sings and wonders all around there and people were looking at pictures of the sun they had taken trying to see her figure in it. My rosary chain turned gold too.. I didn't know what to make of that but thought it just unbelievable. Still something wasn't right to me. I was saved probably 12 yrs later and thank God that I wasn't caught up in what I was only seeing with my eyes. Satan uses Mary and the 'slaying of the spirit' now in the Protestant church to deceive. Martin Luther stood up to the church and I believe he was sent by God to do so. It had to be done. When he plead his case, he was met with stern rebuke and condemnation. It was his determination to be loyal to the Spirit that kept God's truth alive. Chaos ensued, and he was labelled a madman.

But those who listened could tell there was something wrong with the Catholic dogma. They followed too. So throughout the generations since this time, there has been a type of war for the truth of the Gospel. So I grew up Catholic, was saved, then went into the word faith contingent by the influence of my mother in law, and then the prophetic where I found God speaking things to me that I knew the church did not want to hear. Since I was new I didn't want to offend anyone but what I knew was truth then, has never changed even now. Some ministries preach the Gospel in love and live it out, others obviously don't. We have an obligation to those who were just like me. How can I glorify God if I don't know where I came from and how I was spared?? Is was the mercy of God, and the bold truth of those who said 'beware', that I were spared. We need this, not just at the pulpit, but on sites like this. People are looking beyond the pulpit for guidance and rightfully so. There are banterings here that you won't find at the pulpit. That can be a positive or a negative. But at least someone can ask the question without wondering if they are defying authority.

The pulpit seems too dictatorial these days and people are looking to other avenues to validate a wooing of God. That said, the hinderance is that too many people want to offer their insight in a spirit of contention and self-edification. Authority is God given, but the deceived don't know the difference and mainstream christianity has been very loose with what constitutes 'authority'. Some 'Mega churches' are a prime example of that. SI, I would say, wouldn't have Tozer, Ravenhill, Wilkerson, Cymbala, Katz, Reidhead, and the like if there wasn't a demand for the same ole' three point sermon and an offering. But then again this is a historical struggle. The boldness of deception has never wavered from telling people their 'truth'. This is why there is, and will be, a falling away from it. But if we don't have love then we have nothing as Paul says... He rebuked in love.

This doesn't happen overnight, and it's not limited to just the pulpit.... websites can offer something, and it has.... but it can also be a callous tool that turns away those who want the truth in love because we get too comfortable with the security of a desk and a computer.

 2010/1/29 20:45









 Re: A Response to Contacting of Ministers before Criticizing their Teachings by Paul

Quote:
Authority is God given, but the deceived don't know the difference and mainstream christianity has been very loose with what constitutes 'authority'.

Well said, ccrider. Very well said.

 2010/1/29 21:00
Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

ccrider I'm afraid I missed the point of what you were saying. Or perhaps you missed the point of what I saying. In any case I think we're talking from 2 different places. I'm trying to convey the spirit of the original post by Brother West, not argue doctrine.

His words are very valuable to me and I feel to all posters on internet forums in regards to the subject to which he is speaking. I did provide the link to the original thread, which can maybe help give context to his words and my comments on those words. Of note, at the time the original posts were made by West, there was a spike in the number of pretty aggressive anti-Warren threads and some on Calvary Chapel sliding into 'emergent heresy.'

I and I believe SI are all for people finding out the truth. That's not the issue, especially not through the preaching of the word. Again this was in regards to forum conduct primarily, though it can have overflow into other areas as applicable.

God bless.


_________________
Paul

 2010/1/29 21:14Profile









 Re:

Hi giggles. Don't take what I said as a counterpoint to Paul. Articles get posted and people expound.... that means we can respond to a post that is subsequent to the original and give our opinion beyond it, or just offer something in addition. I was offering a general observation more than a direct and acute counter point. Please understand, people chiming in on the subject itself doesn't preclude the wisdom of the original article. Some may take direct pot shots at an article but that shouldn't surprise anyone. After all Paul was describing what he said was 99.9% of people here. He's entitled to that and may not be far off in his assessment. But people will respond nonetheless and I hope that the conclusion will not be anything other than us getting closer to a perspective that won't offend, even if it's not complete agreement.

My circumstance is unique just like many others... that doesn't mean Paul's circumstance and admonishment is lacking in anything. It needed to be said at the time it was said and it definitely glorifies God's working in us on a personal basis.

 2010/1/29 21:37
Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Indeed. Good words ccr.


_________________
Paul

 2010/1/29 21:43Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy