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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : John 5:4 Angel troubleth

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Goldminer
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Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 John 5:4 Angel troubleth

As I was reading John 5 today I was struck by this encounter with Jesus and the infirm man. First of all the man was there 38 years waiting for an angel to trouble the water for healing. I thought what kind of angel and found in the strongs that it was:

a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God

I thought wow did an angel take it upon himself to trouble the water once a year or did God send him? Any thoughts?

Also I found it interesting that there were multitudes of sick and withered folks there and Jesus looked upon only one and healed him. Then He left and touched no other people.

Just wondering if God has given any of you insight into this event.


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KLC

 2010/1/22 11:00Profile
Giggles
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Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re: John 5:4 Angel troubleth

It's funny you bring this up, in light of the prophetic movement controversy threads that are up right now. I have heard a preacher say this whole angel moving the waters to heal was a myth the people began and that it is a picture of the people of God being impotent and apostate and thereby reduced to hoping in this angel which was really a folklore or vain wishing. The pool may have been a natural spring or gentle geyser and the people decided to place hope in it and then attribute it to a messenger of God. Or the pool could have never moved and it was always a friend of a friend of a friend who had gotten healed. Anyhoo, the allusion he made was that it was like the prophetic movement, always hoping in the sign/wonder/supernatural oddity and seeking that thing instead of God Himself. And you can imagine all the hype and energy when the waters began to move or were said to begin moving, everyone wanting to be first in and throwing caution and decency out the window.

That's just one take on it. I've read a few commentaries where this phenomenon is attributed to God remembering mercy even in wrath. Israel here just getting out of the 400 years of prophetic silence with John Baptist and Jesus just recently getting on the scene. So even in that silence God had given the people this kind of remnant promise of His goodness.

Personally, it's a puzzling piece of Scripture.


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Paul

 2010/1/22 11:13Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: John 5:4 Angel troubleth

Some things to consider: Jesus never disagreed nor did He argue with this poor soul. He did bring this man to his point of real need. This man was an eye witness to the water being stirred and also some being healed which just added to his frustrated with his condition. There is a lot here if one is willing to listen to the dialogue between this man and God the Son. What do you think ?


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D.Miller

 2010/1/22 18:14Profile
Ceri
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Joined: 2008/10/17
Posts: 113
Notts. England.

 Re: John 5:4 Angel troubleth

My bible reads 'I have no one to put me in the pool when the water bubbles up'
The study note section states - some manuscripts add an expanded conclusion to verse 3 and all of verse 4:

'waiting for a certain movement of the water, for an angel of the Lord came from time to time and stirred up the water, and the first person to step in after the water was stirred was healed of whatever disease he had'

Most scholars believe this was not part of John's original text, but it represents an ancient tradition that provided helpful background information.


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Ceri Elaine

 2010/1/22 20:07Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone,

And welcome back to the forums Goldminer!


Quote:
listen to the dialogue




I think Daryl has put his finger on the main thing that I've heard mentioned about this story before.


This morning as we were walking to the job I was relating the story of Balaam to one of my co-wokers.

One of the things we discussed is how significant it is when the Lord asks questions to people. And of course that it isn't because He Himself does'nt know the answer.



Wish you all love from God.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2010/1/22 20:32Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: John 5:4 Angel troubleth

Here is another point of view. Perhaps an angel of the Lord really did periodically trouble the waters, and accompanying this there really was healing power manifest to the first one in.

I agree, it is a hard scripture to wrap your mind around because we have not seen anything similar happen in our own time. But this was also before Christ's sacrifice for sin (shed blood), and for physical healing (broken body) in His atonement. If you will, this event occurred under the dispensation of law, under the old covenant. There are numerous examples of similar angelic visitation in the Old Testament.

We now walk by faith in the atoning work of Christ. It is not necessary for an angel to trouble the waters. This is what Christ endured the lashes for.

I actually find the incident of Ananias and Saphira and their lying to the Holy Spirit about their financial donation a more difficult scripture to deal with. The troubling of the waters is an unusual incident though.

Travis


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Travis

 2010/1/23 18:08Profile









 Re: John 5:4 Angel troubleth


A couple of thoughts.

Maybe it was the Lord Himself who troubled the waters, so of course He believed the man.

We have to believe too, that He knew the hearts of everyone around this pool, and choosing that one man who'd been there 38 years, had a broader purpose (ie, for us), than simply his healing. Multitudes were and would be healed, but a selection are brought to our attention for our edification, and mainly to challenge our tendency to make rules for God which God Himself refuses to recognise.

 2010/1/23 20:45
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re: John 5:4 Angel troubleth

I was reading an amazing book called "Feed My Sheep" by George Warnock and was so blessed when I saw exactly this portion of the word shared about even about the 38 years. I don't have time to share it right now as I have to work early tomorrow. Will try to do so soon.


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KLC

 2010/1/24 0:29Profile





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