| Re: |
I am not saying you are wrong on this hoohoou, what I am asking is what you do about it. Do we love and intercede or do we just rage against them. We have an obligation to stand up for truth, but we also have an obligation to grieve if a brother is in error. You may feel comfortable judging who is a brother and who is not, and yes we shall know them by their fruit, but fruit is also jealousy, swearing, smoking, drinking, gossip, covetness, unrighteous anger, hatred, lust, backbiting, impatience, self-exaltation and the like. Do we have enough wisdom and discernment to say that those who are still walking in and of these things are not brothers?
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
m 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I must say I do not think that someone who has committed unrepented of adulterous living should be in ministry. I am not sure they qualify even after that because of Timothy's writings, but I am not sure about that. Also the word says let them be the husband of one wife. I think many who are in ministry and are divorced for reasons other than Jesus cited are on shakey ground. But I can not say they aren't brothers and sisters. Only God know's the heart. We will be judged by what we know and have walked in disobedience to.
My only point is that some of the roughness of this thread appears unloving. If these people were our children would we speak of them with the same gusto. Well we are all God's children, and as such, we need to know His heart is breaking for them, and so should ours. We would show mercy if they were our children, they are God's children and so should we show mercy and love.
Also this is the fruit of the Spirit:
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Where is the gentleness, peace and longsuffering here. Does that mean that those who are not displaying these openly are not brothers? Do we write the off? Or do we pray for them and love them?
| 2010/1/21 10:51||Profile|
| Re: |
hoohoou, I have to amen your post as well. Love is patient and kind but Jesus and Paul spoke in no uncertain terms to those who stood in the way of truth through lies and deception. He told the Pharisees that their father was the devil because he is a liar and the father of lies. If we look at the tone Jesus, Paul, and Peter took in dealing with Pharisees and deceivers (false prophets and teachers) it is a tone that did not mince words. This is the same Paul who defined love and the same Jesus who embodies the love of God. We are to be called a House of Prayer for sure but there are those who are still using it as a den of thieves, stealing souls and money. I understand the long view of this but love obviously confronts as Jesus and Paul confronted.
I want those who are deceived to be plucked out, and I'll pray against the powers and principalities that spearhead this.... but true shepherds protect their flock... they don't lie and decieve. Those who do deceive were called 'wolves', and they wear clothing geared toward deception and stand against God. We will know them by their fruit for sure.... Jesus and Paul pointed their finger right at them and told us to take heed to them. That's what I will do and my love for the lost will not diminish in doing so.
| 2010/1/21 11:03|
| Re: |
Goldminer, you have written a couple of times......
"Only the the separation of the tares and wheat will reveal that for sure."
I am a city boy and moved from Scotland to Kansas 20 years ago. I discovered that it is very hard to tell the wheat from the tares, yet, just before harvest it becomes apparent. Can I suggest that we may be, right now, living in times "just before the harvest." In fact, the seperation may be going on as we speak. If God is in fact, identifying and seperating, then we would do well to not ignore that. Does that mean a lack of love? No, definately not. There will never be a time when we should operate outside of love. If these people are genuinley caught up in something very ungodly, then there needs to be a voice that would warn them. There is a Scripture in proverbs that says "Better the smite of a friend than the kiss of an enemy." Now, just because that has been abused before, does not negate the truth of it.
I have been going to IHOP for just over a year now. I did not want to go, I felt led to go. I have heard many fine sermons by Mike Bickle and Alan Hood and various speakers from all over the world. In fact, I have heard maybe only a few questionable things in the year I have been there. Lou Engle is a man that every time he speaks, I get nervous. He has spoken twice I think in the year I have been there. So, let me report first hand. There was testimony on Sunday morning from some students, a couple from Asbury college about this "move of the Spirit." The one girl who took most time to testify, was in some distress. Now this was taken as "the Holy Spirit," being upon her. She had some strange jerks and so on that I have now seen in various places. I was praying the whole time that she was speaking as I "felt," that at any moment this meeting could break out into something very strange. There was nothing inherently bad in what she was testifying about. Yet, the mannerisims were the same as I have witnessed before.
I believe that the most dangerous thing about IHOP, is that most of what they do, locally, in ministry, is very othodox. Also, they have, many times, excellent teaching, and often times that teaching is from Mike Bickle who I believe is a genuine guy. I just believe that he is genuinly wrong and that he is genuinly taken up with what he belives to be "moves of the Spirit." Tozer wrote a long time ago that there was a whole generation who knew nothing of the genuine presence of God. I believe, to a large extent, we are living in such a generation right now. What passes for "the presence," is nothing more than soulish activity. I would put IHOP near the top in the rankings of soulish activity. The best of the soulish behaviour if you like. There is a genuine hunger there amongst the young people(the vast majority of the church) for a move of God. They just do not know what that looks like and they are being taught what it is by people who actually believe what they are teaching.
One more intersting point. In the year since my son and I have been going there, not one person has ever spoken to us. Just an interesting point I thought. If anyone knows me, they will know that it does not take much to engage me in conversation :)...........brother Frank
| 2010/1/21 11:10|
| Re: Demon Possesion from the Prophetic Movement / Todd Bentley / IHOP / etc. -Kundalani spirits|
Another bit, Jesus never said these money changers weren't of the tribe of Isreal, He said that His father's house shall be called a house of prayer not a den of thieves. He told others they must be born again. I see Paul grieved over the apostacy he is witnessing.
2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
2Ti 4:15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
2Ti 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all [men] forsook me: [I pray God] that it may not be laid to their charge.
When God extends judgment it is always given with a way out until the final end of all things pertaining to this life. Jesus said Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
I read Jim Bakkers book " I Was Wrong" and the funny thing, except in the case of adultry, he thought he was doing what was right. Those who have been blinded by the enemy may not be doing so deliberately and need our intercession and love. They may not be saying I think I will go out and exploit the body of Christ. They may think they have God's word on what they are doing. Like the case of the now popular quotes:
Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for [it is] he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as [it is] this day.
3Jo 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
Some of the body grabs these verses and misses the other verses that show what it really means.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
Having those things is prosperous, having Jesus is true prosperity.
We don't know who is deliberately deceiving and who is just deceived themselves. Both deceived and decieving have bad fruit. Love seeks to redeem and rescue from the enemy in all cases and to ask God to have mercy on their souls.
Jesus took the penalty of sinful man, Moses said kill me rather than them, Paul wished that he might be blotted out rather than his brothers after the flesh. Do we love them enough to stand in the gap and do battle for them? Just wondering.
| 2010/1/21 11:27||Profile|
| Re: |
Well appolus I am glad you shared this. I too have been to IHOP once and was blessed to have been there. I saw young people deeply seeking the Lord and saw no wierdness that I can remember. I was impressed by the fact none of the young were walking around on their cell phone but were studying the word and in prayer, taking communion and ministering love to each other.
I however, and I am not young, ha, had a precious young bible school student come up and sit with me and share fellowship with me. It was greatly welcomed because I came by myself for a week to just seek God in a non-negative atmosphere. I came home refreshed. I live with no practicing believers in my family, and feel I need to get away occassionally.
This is my point, I have heard Mike Bickle spoken of as a false prophet and other things, but here you are saying he is sincere. I find him sincere as well. Is he false or not. Do you know his heart? do I? How many of us on the forum have sat down to get to know the man and his heart? This is important stuff. God looks on the heart.
I feel bad about nobody talking to you. But I would admonish you to find those who look like they need someone to talk to them and you will find a friend. Give and it shall be given unto you.
Thanks for sharing here.
I might also add here just about every generation believed they were seeing that separation take place. It may be, but it might not be as well.
Matt.13:25-30 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
| 2010/1/21 11:50||Profile|
| Re: |
Do we love them enough to stand in the gap and do battle for them? Just wondering
Goldminer, I don't feel either of us are in any way being combative and I really appreciate that from you. It's a blessing to discuss these things with you. I honestly think that we are both drawing caricatures of the issue. I certainly wouldn't refuse to forgive them and I should be praying for these men much more than I am, especially since these false doctrines weigh so heavy on me.
I guess my main point is that I believe there is a difference between wolves and wounded sheep. Most of these men are wolves, even if they are sincere. God does judge the heart, but we will be known by our fruit. They may very well have been decieved first, but they are now teaching this. Once they went from espousing to teaching, they went from wounded sheep to wolves.
All in all we are both right. They will face judgment for what they are doing, and it will be fierce. They are also not without hope, and the same Jesus who welcomed wretched me will welcome them as well, if they so choose. I guess my burden is more for the people who are being decieved by them, Bentley and Crowder being the two I'm most familiar with.
| 2010/1/21 12:40||Profile|
Northern Rockies, BC, Canada
| Re: Demon Possesion from the Prophetic Movement / Todd Bentley / IHOP / etc. -Kundala|
must VIOLENTLY EXPEL these things in the name of JESUS.
Be FREE in His mighty name!
How about prayer & fasting!
| 2010/1/21 14:19||Profile|
| Re: bro Frank|
We'er putting together a couple of weeks worth of meetings for Andrew here in Canton for April of this year, I assure you that if you decide to come you'll have plenty of fellowship and much oppurtunity for conversation. Let me know.
| 2010/1/21 18:29||Profile|
| Re: |
i have been to ihop before and they did seem very nice and loving and did seem close to God, but they began to speak prophecies of myself that just seemed to not make sense at all and then they wanted to lay hands on me to recieve the baptism of the holy spirit and in a way it was kind of shocking i said i did not want to after they tried because it just did not feel right, as son as i rejected it i could tell they were dissapointed, i just see something totaly wrong with the baptism that they are doing, i wonder about it a lot.
| 2010/1/22 2:53||Profile|
| Re: Demon Possesion from the Prophetic Movement / Todd Bentley / IHOP / etc. -Kundala|
Quote:Back in the 90's I heard an old preacher (now dead) give a prophetic utterance that the people that are being deceived by these ministries some will recover, others will not. The some that will recover will be the most strongest believers because they will know what deception is and will avoid it and warn others of the dangers.
I truly wonder what God is going to do to those ministries who have been spreading this alien spirit right through the Body of Christ. Truly, Judgement must begin "at the house of God."
While everyone was into this laughing stuff, God kept me from entering into that mess. Though I never saw it as a mess at the time, I just never got involved. I was looking for a different type of anointing. I didn't want to laugh, I wanted God to change me and deliver me from the besetting sin so there wouldn't be a sin hindrance from entering fully into the throne room of Grace and to behold His beautiful face.
| 2010/1/22 8:48|