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 Re:

"I know, that's very troubling.

But what causes this downfall? Ambition? Some unsurrendered thing? A love for the praises of men?" AD

PRIDE!!

Rick Joyner and Todd Bentley are very, very dangerous. Joyner is very crafty, very smart, and malicious in his motives. I recall someone asking Joyner about a criticism from another pastor (I won't name him) concerning his errant prophecies and basically Joyner's response was to attack the person rather than defend himself. It came off as very arrogant and condescending. He's prophesied over the Iraq war and WMD on a prophetic website and was wrong.... when challenged he went into his litany of defenses about how prophecies that don't come as predicted doesn't mean the prophecy is false. He's very adept and 'lawyerly' in his arguments and he knows this. He's also joined what's called the 'Knights of Malta' years ago and admits doing so. I ask: why wasn't Christ enough? 'Secret organizations' are a HUGE red flag, if you have a desire to join one then you are either deceived or not sanctified by the might hand of God in Christ. Christ said:

Matthew 24:26
"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it."

The desert being a far off place where a 'gathering' will take place like Lakeland Fla, or 'secret, inner rooms' like Knights of Malta, Opus Dei, and the like. Christ is in us, if he's not sufficient then He's not really there. I remember people all over the world saying 'God's in Lakeland, go and see!!'. We now know the outcome of this. By even presuming that he can 'restore' Bentley, Joyner is substantiating the suspicions of many before Lakeland... he's false and he's harmful.

Andrew Strom knows what I'm saying and knows much much more than I. This warning is necessary for the times that we are in.

 2010/1/19 7:48
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

 Re: Andrew Strom and Prophetic Movement

I appreciate Andrew detailing what these movements look like, how they act...

When Bentley was at Lakeland, I looked at the videos of this 'ministry' while there. As I recall his performance matched the descriptions shared by Andrew. Scary.

You know, it is mighty near impossible for a body to know everything about every aberrant movement out there. But if we follow the Spirit's leading, when he gives us red flags, we do well to listen, back off even when we do not know the fine details of why. Life has proven many times that failure to do so will invite hurt and getting burned.

Thanks for posting this informative article, Giggles.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2010/1/19 8:57Profile









 Re:

I guess my question is: why in the world do we need movements? Isn't the Gospel good enough?

 2010/1/19 9:26
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3407
This world is not my home anymore.

 Isn't the Gospel good enough?

Quote:
by Mahoney

I guess my question is: why in the world do we need movements? Isn't the Gospel good enough?


No, it isn't good enough for those who desire "more" than Christ. But have they even seen the TRUE gospel to even desire that?

I don't say this lightly nor to make them out to be evil, b/c I don't think they are. I don't think they woke up one morning and said, "I want to be deceived today and deceive others." !!

We HAVE TO [b]remember Christ's last prayer[/b] for the very ones who killed Him, "Forgive them, they know not what they do."


_________________
Lisa

 2010/1/19 10:26Profile









 Re: Isn't the Gospel good enough?

Quote:
I don't say this lightly nor to make them out to be evil, b/c I don't think they are. I don't think they woke up one morning and said, "I want to be deceived today and deceive others." !!



Well, actually they are evil...and so am I...and so are you.

And that's the first step in understanding the Gospel. We are all evil and wicked and we love a lie. We love to suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

If I understand how wicked I really am, then Christ will become my treasure, my all, and I will not seek movements or manifestations, or "words" or whatever....I will seek Christ.

 2010/1/19 10:40









 Re:

Quote:
MityDisciple said: If God chooses Todd Bentley to bring true genuine revival to the world, there is going to be some pretty confused Christians out there. What if God did use him?

God is definitly shaking things up right now.



"And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." -Matthew 19:9

Todd Bentley had affairs with another woman during the "Lakeland Outpouring" while he was still married with his wife who was back in Canada. Then he was divorced from his wife and married the woman he was having an affair with. He is living in adultery.

Christianity 101: God does not use unrepentant adulterers to usher in end-time revivals. This is a deception of lying signs and wonders just as the Lord warned. Adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of God, 1 Cor. 6:9-10.

There are many spirits in the world. Not every one of them is holy. We need to test them by two things, by their doctrine, and by their fruit. Lakeland crashed and burned because of an adulterous affair. It's bad fruit, it's a bad tree. Todd is a false prophet.

It's so sad to see the world starting to follow him again, even after his sin has been brought into the light and there's no repentance. Andrew Strom's warning is right on.

 2010/1/19 11:02









 Re:

Let us also not forget the many extra and un-biblical claims even before this movement. Bentley spoke unashamedly about being 'operated' on while in heaven by angels who took out his organs and sewed into him 'truth'. Jesus said: I am the truth.... The Bible does not say that we get truth in the way Bentley has stated. There is much much more than this. He has many many un-biblical personal stories about himself. Some are on youtube. We've been warned once as God has judged this movement to be false. It is His mercy that allows movements such as Lakeland to be exposed. The bible says false signs and wonders will continue and it's our responsibility to heed the warnings and test the spirits against scripture. We're not speaking of meticulous doctrinal differences in interpretation like 'predestination', we're talking about a glaring and bold mockery of God's word by adding to it with stories made up by these men.

2 Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

As far as I know, Bentley has not monetarily reimbursed those who donated heavily to the movement... those who were not healed as promised, and those who assumed that he was living in purity of heart and mind as elders and 'leaders' are commanded.

 2010/1/19 11:32
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3407
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Mahoney

Quote:
by Mahoney

Well, actually they are evil...and so am I...and so are you.

And that's the first step in understanding the Gospel. We are all evil and wicked and we love a lie. We love to suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

If I understand how wicked I really am, then Christ will become my treasure, my all, and I will not seek movements or manifestations, or "words" or whatever....I will seek Christ.


Mahoney,

I understand where you are coming from; but with my personality if I continually lived with what you have just written, I would be hopeless. So I, too, will seek Christ but with hope b/c I believe that when God ripped the veil from top to bottom; God, Himself, visually showed us that we have now been made righteous, and no longer will our sin keep us from His presence.

Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, [i]let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.[/i]
Hebrews 10:19-22

Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; [i]blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not reckon his sin.[/i]
Romans 4:6-8

And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, [i]God made alive together with him[/i], having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; [i]this he set aside, nailing it to the cross[/i].
Colossians 2:13,14

I know how evil I am Mahoney but I also know how great God is and that I cannot be victorious over any sin in myself unless God allows me to be victorious! I don't understand it all but I know that "I can do nothing without Him" and that helps me to understand that I am accepted no matter how evil anyone says that I am!

God bless you!


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Lisa

 2010/1/19 12:29Profile
wayneman
Member



Joined: 2009/1/24
Posts: 454
Michigan

 Re: spiritual counterfeits

Good word, Lysa.

Anyway, we can't get inside Todd Bentley' poor brain and determine whether he is sincere. We do know that sincerity is no guarantee against deception if we neglect to "try the spirits." 1 John 4:1 William Branham was a simple minded man who appeared to be very sincere, but we know he wasn't the real deal because he didn't preach Christ - all he talked about was himself and his revelations...like Bentley. But Branham appears to have worked genuine healing miracles...unlike Bentley.

When my friends and I got on our "power evangelism" kick, we were sincere. In fact, we got pulled into it when a minister singled me out at a signs and wonders seminar and gave me the gift of "laying on of hands." I laid hands on people and it felt like 120 volts of electricity was running thru my hands, and the people I prayed for looked like they really were being electrocuted! They would tremble violently and then collapse to the floor, sobbing. But after a few years of "signs and wonders" we weren't seeing the sort of spiritual fruit that you would expect to accompany all these spectacular "manifestations of the Spirit." I never could shake the feeling that there was something fishy in all this.

Penn-lewis' War on the Saints and jonathan Edwards' Religious Affections both state that counterfeit spiritual experiences begin with physical sensations. The Spirit works from the inside out, revealing the mystery of salvation to the inner man; lying spirits operate on the flesh with tingling, thrills of fire and other enjoyable sensations. The latter describes the experiences people have under Hunter's and Joyner's ministry. But nothing happeming under their ministries requires a supernatural explanation - it could stage hypnotism and mass hysteria, nothing more. I'm not sure whether we should assign the blame to demonic activity or human folly.


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Wayne Kraus

 2010/1/19 14:22Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Hello...

I believe that there are prophets...and that they can exist and operate in the gift today. However, there are so many people who fancy themselves to be prophets who are truly not. In fact, I think that some of them actually believe that they are. I have noticed that the words of many would-be prophets are mingled with sectarian ideology, but packaged in a way that makes it seem like it comes straight from God Himself. I can't help but wonder if those "prophets" have truly weighed the ease in which they speak for God. It would be a terrible thing to (even unwittingly) place words into the mouth of God.

Some of these often almost feel justified when they are rejected, as if those who reject or test their words are testing the undeniable words of God Himself. When they spread their sectarian words that come across as brash or bitter, they almost comfort themselves in their rejection.

While I was a teenager, one would-be prophet used to share his "prophet words of knowledge" quite readily. He would speak for God and tell people things that came across as if God were speaking in the first person through his mouth. Ironically, he was wrong most of the time. The things that he was NOT wrong about were often generic words that merely lined up with common understanding of the Word of God. People stopped hanging out with this guy. He was extremely abrasive, but falsely identified this with what he considered the characteristic of a prophet amongst real Christians.

In fact, this same guy used to take comfort in his rejection. He once confided that people didn't like him because he was a "prophet." I asked him, "Is it because you are a prophet, or is it because you are just mean?" Needless to say, he didn't take my question with a "grain of salt." He continued to speak out as if he were a prophet...to the point that he was eventually asked to refrain from doing so. He "shook the dust" off his shoulders and shoes and moved on to a congregation that embraced his "words." He even talked a girl into marrying him (after he told her that God told him that they would be married). However, he "wore out his welcome" at that congregation soon enough...and eventually fell into sin.

When I see certain men like Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn and even those seemingly sincere believers who try to publicly present or proclaim themselves as prophets, I just want to weep. There has never been a greater need for prophets than in this day and age! As brother Ravenhill said, "We desperately need the Elijahs of God!" However, so many who might even truly think themselves to be prophets just seem to "miss" it so often (even if they don't realize it). Yet there many believers -- especially those who are Pentecostal or Charismatic -- who are more welcoming of those "words" uttered in a "prophetic" manner. Ultimately, we should be of the Berean attitude (Acts 17:11). We should TEST EVERYTHING (I Thessalonians 5:21) -- no matter who says it. I believe that a true prophet will welcome such a test.


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Christopher

 2010/1/19 14:25Profile





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