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Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

A little error can lead into a lot of error!


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Mark Nash

 2004/10/6 9:32Profile
FireinmyBones1
Member



Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

Brother Greg,
I highly respect you as well as your incredible ministry through sermon index. I would have to disagree with you on the point of the book, "War on the Saints", however. You seem to be a student of revival history. You should also know then that "War on the Saints" was renounced by Evan Roberts no less than 2 years after it's publishing. I have a copy of the book and honestly find it to be filled with bizzare and unbiblical doctrines. This book shocked and appauled (sp?) the Welsh Revival converts because it denounced (in shrouded language) many of the powerful demonstrations of the Spirit which took place in Wales. Mrs. Penn Lewis was a great woman and no doubt loved the Lord with all of her heart, some of her literature however, was slightly off. Now I'm sure some things I believe are too, slightly off, so I do not say that as a condemnation on her. If you study the Welsh Revival, you will find that Mrs. Penn Lewis was possibly one of the reasons behind Evan Roberts withdraw from ministry, as well as the decline of the revival. I would be careful of recommending "War on the Saints". Just a sincere word from a brother in the Lord.
Blessings,
Jeff


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Jeff

 2004/10/6 9:39Profile
5nva
Member



Joined: 2003/8/15
Posts: 179


 Re:

Nasher:

What is the little error that you are speaking about? Is it the wording "accept/receive" or are you speaking about demon possession of Christians.

Mike


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Mike

 2004/10/6 9:40Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

The little error is the one you have mentioned:

Quote:
I agree that the phrase "accept Christ" is used very loosely and has led many people to believe they are born again when they are not.


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Mark Nash

 2004/10/6 9:59Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Mike 5nva

Quote:
I think that this is just a play on wording. I agree that the phrase "accept Christ" is used very loosely and has led many people to believe they are born again when they are not. I myslef don't like to use the words accept Christ and I think for the most part they are used incorrectly.

I am not teasing but I am trying to provoke thought here. In the early days of this site there was a lot of attention given to AW Tozer, the man known as a 20th Century prophet. One of Tozer's main concerns was what he called textualism;

"The error of textualism is not doctrinal. It is far more subtle than that and much more difficult to discover, but its effects are just as deadly. Not its theological beliefs are at fault, but its assumptions. It assumes, for instance, that if we have the word for a thing we have the thing itself. If it is in the Bible, it is in us. If we have the doctrine, we have the experience. If something was true of Paul it is of necessity true of us because we accept Paul's epistles as divinely inspired. The Bible tells us how to be saved, but textualism goes on to make it tell us that we are saved, something which in the very nature of things it cannot do. Assurance of individual salvation is thus no more than a logical conclusion drawn from doctrinal premises, and the resultant experience wholly mental." (Man: The Dwelling Place of God, A. W. Tozer, page 18, copyright 1966 Christian Publications, Inc., Harrisburg, PA.)

My own conviction is that textualism lies at the foundation of many of our troubles in evangelicalism. The evangelical movement has created a whole theology of expectation that has no real basis in scripture. There is no biblical equivalent for 'accepting Christ' 'deciding for Christ' 'asking Christ into your life' 'giving your heart to Jesus' or any of these things. Consequently it is impossible to define just what the phrases mean. Does it matter you ask? You are just splitting hairs. Let me illustrate; I may call the creature downstairs a fish. Everyone else calls it a dog but does it matter? No, unless you get the 'How to Care for your Fish' manual. In that I read that the best home for my 'fish' is a water-filled aquarium and its favourite food is 'ants' eggs'. The arbitary name now it begins to have serious implications for the creature downstairs.

We do the same in our current evangelical practices. We take someone through an event we call 'accepting Christ' 'deciding for Christ' 'asking Christ into your life' 'giving your heart to Jesus'and then say 'now that you have done this what the Bible says about the Ephesians is true for you'. There is an enormous gap here. We then end up having to defend these positions by saying 'if you have Christ you have the Spirit' and because you have 'accepted Christ' 'decided for Christ' 'asked Christ into your life' 'given your heart to Jesus' you have Christ. Who says so?

The New Testament actually works in the opposite direction. It says 'if you don't have the Spirit you are not Christ's'. It says 'if you are led by the Spirit you are a son of God'. and most surprizing of all, where evangelicals says that 'when you receive Christ you receive the Spirit' the New Testament says 'when you receive the Spirit you receive Christ'.that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,(Eph 3:16-17 NASB) Apparently the way that Christ 'dwells in your heart by faith' is by being strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man'. Apparently Christ dwells in the heart as a result of the presence of the Spirit, rather than the other way around.

The great question that Paul asked was not have you 'accepted Christ' 'decided for Christ' 'asked Christ into your life' 'given your heart to Jesus'but 'when you believed did you receive the Spirit? Now if we ask that question for this thread... Can someone who is filled with the Spirit also a demon? The simple answer is 'where would the demon be if we are filled with the Holy Spirit?'


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Ron Bailey

 2004/10/6 10:45Profile
5nva
Member



Joined: 2003/8/15
Posts: 179


 Re:

Nasher:

Please explain the error. I have met many people who say they have accepted Jesus has their Lord and Savior but they are clearly not living for the Lord, they are practicing sin of many kind. I have met many who say they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior when they were 4, 5, 6, 7, etc years old and they are now adults and have no fruit of ever serving Him. That is not to say it isn't possible for a young child to be born again, I am just using this as an example for my statement that the phrase "accept Jesus" is used loosely.

Mike


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Mike

 2004/10/6 10:45Profile
5nva
Member



Joined: 2003/8/15
Posts: 179


 Re:

Ron:

I do agree with you. My post was to just show that there is scripture that indicates an accepting and receiving. You asked where in scripture does it mention this and that is what I tried to answer. I am in agreement that we should not present the gospel and salvation as "accepting Jesus". Our message should be as Peter said "repent and be saved".

As to the demon possession, I do not believe a person who is abiding in Christ, surrendering to God daily as a living sacrifice and presenting themselves as a slave to righteousness can be demon possessed.

Matthew 15:28-29 - But if cast out demon by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

Luke 11:22 - but when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him allhis armor on which he has relied, and distributes his plunder.

I do believe such a person can be demon oppressed or be under attack. I also believe one can fall away so I would say that if a person falls away they could become demon possessed at that point. I'm sure this will really open up a can of worms.

Mike


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Mike

 2004/10/6 11:02Profile
mloaks
Member



Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 129
So. MD, USA

 Re:

Would 'receive' be a better term?

 2004/10/6 11:03Profile
sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37105
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Quote:
renounced by Evan Roberts no less than 2 years after it's publishing.


Brother Jeff could you give me reliable sources and information about this 'rejection' of the book by Roberts. He did stay with Jessie Penn-Lewis most of his life. On the book itself it deals so much with the Cross of Christ and centers its doctrines around that in a powerful way. I would like to say the same of most modern movements but sadly the cross of Christ is not paramount. I like how Jessie Penn-Lewis in her book on the welsh revival history which she witnessed first hand said that the preaching of the Cross was brought back by God into the churches before the revival came. What a pre-requisite for revival.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/10/6 11:22Profile
FireinmyBones1
Member



Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

Brother Greg,
I have the information stored upstairs although the source is foggy. I believe it is from "An Instrument of Revival" - Roberts Biography. When I go home for lunch I will search for an exact reference for you though.
I do agree that Mrs. Penn Lewis does/did bring a much needed emphasis on the cross of Christ. I have to say though that the book seems to breed a fear that any wrong move in our search for God may cause us to become demonized. It seems to ignore Jesus' promise that if His children ask for the Holy Spirit sinerely, He will allow them to receive no other Spirit. (Matt 7:9-11) Although what you said is also valid, her emphasis on the cross that is. In that way she reminds me of one of my Professors from college, Dr. Sandy Kirk - have you heard of her? The cross is her central passion, I don't believe I have ever heard or read anyone speak of the cross with as much passion and conviction as she.
Blessings,
Jeff


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Jeff

 2004/10/6 11:45Profile





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