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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Art Katz's Eschatology

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myfirstLove
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Joined: 2005/11/26
Posts: 496


 Re:

Tears of Joy, I use to believe like you do because I then, did not understand the mystery that Paul shared and the New Covenant.

Please meditate on the scriptures that ADiciple shares. I'm definetly not a teacher so its hard for me to explain certain topics like this one. But, ADisciple is doing a great job. He's not trying to be so spiritual with this, but seeing the word by the Spirit and not the letter as many have intrepreted endtimes thru the old testament covenant instead of the new. I even find that many Christians are even more under old testament covenant (not that they try to keep all 6 hundred something laws) than the New which has kept many under law and condemnation.

Nice hearing from you again. Its been a long time since I've been on S.I. or read anything on it.

Even if we do not agree on this, we have the cross to fellowship in :) But, I do pray that your eyes will be enlighten to this topic:)

Peace, Lisa




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Lisa

 2010/1/14 0:05Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

He's not trying to be so spiritual with this, but seeing the word by the Spirit and not the letter as many have intrepreted endtimes thru the old testament covenant instead of the new.



Sister Lisa, I would encourage you to consider a passage that, in spite of my having cited it multiple times in this thread, has altogether been ignored. It's a new covenant passage from the Old Testament, where Jesus Himself states His eternal purpose is to save the Jews and bring them back into the land of Israel. See my comments earlier on Isaiah 49:5-8, where this very thing is said.


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Jimmy H

 2010/1/14 0:13Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
But where you and I differ here, so far as I have understood you, is that you believe these spiritual realities and this spiritual city will exist without any consideration whatsoever of Jerusalem.



No, Jimmy, if you recall my earlier post, I said the spiritual City the new Jerusalem will be all over the earth, just as Babylon is all over the earth. We don't seem to have any trouble recognizing that "Babylon" is not just a geographical city, but a spiritual "city" that ruless over the whole world, religious, political, economical.

In like manner the new Jerusalem is to be all over the earth, so that I can be dwelling in Jerusalem right where I live here in North America. And so the new Jerusalem would certainly compass that old earthly city in Palestine.

Quote:
This is a common misconception. God's bringing the Jews into the land of Canaan was definitely a fulfillment of His promises to Abraham. But it was not the ultimate fulfillment



That's right. It was but a "type," a shadow, a prophecy actually, of the true Rest... which is not for some other dispensation and age, but for TODAY. "For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day" (Heb. 4.8).

What day? "TODAY, if ye will hear His Voice..." (Heb. 3.7).

The land of Canaan typified the ultimate Rest in the Spirit God has for His people-- and both Jew and Gentile alike (who believe in Jesus) are His people, the ones He has in mind when He says, "There remaineth therefore a Rest to the people of God" (Heb. 4.9).

Quote:
Yes, God will make Jerusalem the praise of the earth, and Jesus will reign from that very place as the capitol of the world



You are probably going to get tired of me if I say one more time that Jerusalem IS the capitol of the world, where our Lord Jesus Christ reigns RIGHT NOW. He sits upon the throne of David in Zion right now. He sits on the greatest throne in the universe right now (Ps. 2.6, Ps. 110.1,2). Right now, all power is given unto Him in heaven AND in earth (Mt. 28.18). He has it all right now.

And ultimately that throne and City is going to come down upon the earth, all over the earth, and cover the earth with the glory of God as the waters cover the sea.

By the way I haven't overlooked your comments about Isa. 49. I know I haven't picked up on that, but it's just because I can't seem to get you (and Art Katz) over "the hurdle" ...so that you can see how the New Covenant swallows up the law and the prophets, and brings them into a greater, fuller, deeper spiritual reality.

As Isaiah himself said, "For brass I will bring gold, etc." (Isa. 60.17). In restoration, God gives GREATER than his original promise. He takes things "to the next level," as they say.

As he said also to Ezekiel, "I will do BETTER unto you than at your beginnings" (Ezek. 36.11).


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Allan Halton

 2010/1/14 12:57Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

ADisciple,

I think I am coming along with understanding what you are saying. Thanks for the clarification. It seems we are closer in agreement than I originally thought. At least, I hope we are!

Quote:

In like manner the new Jerusalem is to be all over the earth, so that I can be dwelling in Jerusalem right where I live here in North America. And so the new Jerusalem would certainly compass that old earthly city in Palestine.



I totally agree! The promises concerning Abraham and the land are not limited to just the geographical land itself. As Paul stated in Romans 4:13, the promise to Abraham was ultimately to make him an heir of the entire world! The blessing that was to be released through him was always global in it's scope, from the very beginning. It would be a universal blessing that transcended everything. The prophets confirmed this notion as well. However, with that said, even with this universal blessing being unleashed, the locus of that blessing is to be found in the Jewish people inheriting the land promised to Abraham in the ages to come.

Quote:

You are probably going to get tired of me if I say one more time that Jerusalem IS the capitol of the world, where our Lord Jesus Christ reigns RIGHT NOW. He sits upon the throne of David in Zion right now. He sits on the greatest throne in the universe right now (Ps. 2.6, Ps. 110.1,2). Right now, all power is given unto Him in heaven AND in earth (Mt. 28.18). He has it all right now.



Again, I totally agree. And this is where I part company with those in the dispensational camps that do not teach that Christ is currently occupying the throne of David. There is only one throne for Christ to occupy. However, even with His present occupation of that throne, it is clear that while He sits and rules and reigns right now, not all things have been submitted themselves to that rule. Thus, we are still to look forward to the ages to come, when all things will be subjected to Him.

Quote:

By the way I haven't overlooked your comments about Isa. 49. I know I haven't picked up on that, but it's just because I can't seem to get you (and Art Katz) over "the hurdle" ...so that you can see how the New Covenant swallows up the law and the prophets, and brings them into a greater, fuller, deeper spiritual reality.



Art and I would fully agree that the New Covenant is more glorious than the Old, and that it swallows up the law and the prophets. As you show, the law and the prophets knew it would be this way too. So, their prophecies were not made unaware of the deep spiritual reality and power that the New Covenant would bring. They anticipated them every step of the way. But in their anticipation, and their seeing of this "swallowing," they still saw that God intended to save all of Israel one day, and have a second exodus that would bring them from the nations whereto they had been scattered, to permanently settle them in the land and cities that had been given to them by promise. They saw that the fullness of the realities you speak about, would be chiefly demonstrated and released in these very actions of God in the ages to come. Indeed, apart from these things, the fullness of these realities can never be truly realized.


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Jimmy H

 2010/1/14 23:31Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Well, Jimmy, as I read your post I was initially hopeful you might be understanding what I was saying, till I came this:

Quote:
However, with that said, even with this universal blessing being unleashed, the locus of that blessing is to be found in the Jewish people inheriting the land promised to Abraham in the ages to come.



Who are "the Jewish people" (according to the apostle Paul, that is)?

May I let you in on a secret? I myself am Jewish! Yes, it's true!

"But he is NOT a Jew which is one outwardly... But he IS a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart..." (Rom. 2.28,29).

And I am an Israelite (Gal. 6.15,16).

I am Abraham's seed, and an heir according to the promises (Gal. 3.29).

Jimmy we MUST come up into the spiritual reality the old testament scriptures spoke of. I was glad for the day when I saw by revelation of the Spirit (backed by the Scriptures of course) that, as a true Israelite, the old testament scriptures were MINE!

Quote:
Again, I totally agree. And this is where I part company with those in the dispensational camps that do not teach that Christ is currently occupying the throne of David. There is only one throne for Christ to occupy. However, even with His present occupation of that throne, it is clear that while He sits and rules and reigns right now, not all things have been submitted themselves to that rule. Thus, we are still to look forward to the ages to come, when all things will be subjected to Him.



I certainly do agree with you on this. He sits upon the throne of David in Zion right now, ruling at the Father's right hand on the throne of the Kingdom with all power in Heaven and in earth. He rules IN THE MIDST of His enemies... and we will yet see them ALL made the footstool of His feet... and this, I'm inclined to think, in THIS age yet!

Quote:
But in their anticipation, and their seeing of this "swallowing," they still saw that God intended to save all of Israel one day, and have a second exodus that would bring them from the nations whereto they had been scattered, to permanently settle them in the land and cities that had been given to them by promise.



Again, I think this is a short-sighted understanding of what City and Land God intends to gather His elect unto. "All Israel," you know, includes the elect Gentiles as well (Rom. 9.23-26).

Certainly, Jimmy, there is coming a time when in a powerful operation of the Spirit of God, the natural branches of the olive tree of Israel (which tree includes many Gentile believers) ...there is coming a time when the natural branches, "if they abide not still in unbelief" (Rom. 11.23) (...so there is a CONDITION: it isn't just automatic: they must turn and BELIEVE) ...but there is coming a time when the natural branches, those who do turn and become believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, are grafted back into the olive tree. It will be so awesome and powerful a move of the Spirit that Paul could only call it "life from the dead."

But there is no intimation in Paul's discourse on this (Romans Chapters 9 through 11) that all these natural branches will be gathered to one geographical place in the earth, even though wherever they are they will be home at last in the Olive Tree Himself.

...And I'm not sure I understand just how it will happen. "Life from the dead," Paul says. Did he mean Life from those who were formerly Gentiles... and who now impart the resurrection Life of Jesus to the "natural branches"? (Don't know. Just wondering about this.)

Jimmy, I wonder if I could recommend some reading to you. I'm not the only one who thinks along these lines, and in fact I am grateful to many others of far greater stature than myself whose eyes the Lord has graced to see things from the persective of His New Covenant.

--If you can get a copy of the Journal of George Fox (the early Quaker apostle) I highly recommend that.

--Also The Gospel of the Kingdom, by Philip Mauro (although Mauro did not embrace the pentecostal move when God released it. But even so this book is one of the best I've read on this subject.)

--T. Austin Sparks has some great illumination on this as well, but I don't have the references at my finger tips. You can search them out on the website under his name.

--I also highly recommend George Warnock's writings. Interspersed in many of them you will find as clear a teaching on this matter as you will find anywhere. The Feast of Tabernacles is good. But more particularly, read From Tent to Temple, the chapter on the Tabernacle of David, giving close attention to the secions, A New Tent on Mount Zion, reading on to Why Mount Zion?, The Tabernacle of David to be Rebuilt, The Jerusalem Controversy, The Good Olive Tree, and The Kingdom of Heaven.

You can find it here: [url=http://www.georgewarnock.com/]George Warnock's writing From Tent To Temple[/url]

Blessings to you, Jimmy!


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Allan Halton

 2010/1/15 14:51Profile





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