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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
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Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Sorry for the delayed response. I'm pretty busy and could only write this response in small chunks on my lunch break at work :-)

Re: ADisciple

Quote:

What nation would that be? It is the one holy nation comprised of both Jew and Gentile, according to the apostle Peter (1 Pt. 2.9).



No doubt. But be careful how you use that text unless you use it in a way that allegorizes away its historical meaning and the context in which Peter cited it. For in doing so, one can end up developing a theology in which the Church somehow replaces Israel in relation to it's calling and purposes, and robs the nation of its unique election unto which God has called it, and as a result, rob God of the glory that belongs to Him in that election. The phrases: chosen generation, royal priesthood, holy nation, and peculiar people, these are phrases from Deuteronomy that Moses originally applied to the nation of Israel.

Moses was showing the nation of Israel the calling to which the Lord had summoned it to in its election, to make them distinct from all other nations. Peter cited this text and appropritately applied it to everybody within the Church. Why? Because the Church has replaced Israel in the plans of God? Hardly. The Church is bound up in its identification with national Israel in the plan of God, and cannot be distinguished from it, as is commonly done in dispensational and replacement theologies.

We as Gentiles have been "grafted in among them," (Romans 11:17) that is, the natural branches, the nation of Israel. We as Gentiles who by our unbelief were formerly "excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise," (Ephesians 2:12) have now been "brought near" (Ephesians 2:13) by the blood of Christ, and as a result have been made "one new man." (Ephesians 2:15) Is that "one new man" separate and entirely apart from the nation of Israel and it's calling? No! The "one new man" is who the fallen branches of the nation are called into partaking of. We who were formerly "strangers and aliens" have now become "fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household," (Ephesians 2:19) and are such because of the mystical union we share with Christ, who is ultimately Israel, the seed of the promise made to Abraham. We have been brought into the household and family of God, through the Spirit of adoption, which has made us sons and daughters of God.

You may still be in doubt with what I say. But have you thought about how it is we as Gentiles are able to be made partakers of the New Covenant? Has God established the New Covenant on an individual basis with all of humanity in Christ? Not according to the Scriptures. According to the prophet Jeremiah, the New Covenant which God has made was made with the nation of Israel. ""Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." (Jeremiah 31:31) And in case one is tempted to spiritualize this prophecy to mean something else, the Lord makes it clear by refering to the new nations, "the house of Israel" (the northern kingdom) and "the house of Judah" (the southern kingdom). The only reason we as Gentiles can partake of the New Covenant is because of the identification we have with the nation of Israel, having been grafted into it. We partake in the "covenants of promise" made with the seed of Abraham through our union with Christ, who is the ultimate seed.

Quote:

That being so, do I, a Gentile, have some little plot of land somewhere over there in Israel?



So far as I've studied the Scriptures, no, we as grafted in Gentiles do not have a plot of land over there. So far as I have understood it, that seems to be reserved for the natural branches alone. However, that does not mean we will not enjoy the benefits derived from the land being restored and resettled in the age to come. Indeed, all of creation will derive benefit from it. Indeed, the restored nation living in that land promised to the patriarchs is for the purpose of conferring blessing to all of the world. According to the promises made to Abraham, and especially as emphatically stated time and time again by the prophet Isaiah, the seed and the land were always meant to be the medium of releasing God's blessing back into all of creation.

Quote:

Again, what land? Heb. 11.16



"The land of promise" (Hebrews 11:9) that Abraham looked forward to living in, and sojurned only briefly in during his life. It is the "place he is to receive as an inheritance," (Hebrews 11:8) which was also confirmed as to being the inheritance of Isaac and Jacob. (Hebrews 11:9) These men never did receive this land in their lives. They "died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance..." (Hebrews 11:13) This is specifically talking about the geographical plot of land that Abraham walked across, that God promised He would give to Him. When will Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob receive it? They will eventually receive it in the resurrection.

If they don't, then God is a liar. But because God is not a man that He should lie, we know that in the age to come they will indeed receive the land God promised to them, and that they looked forward to receiving by faith. They knew it would never come in their life time, thus, they recognized they must receive it in the age to come, and such, they knew it must ultimatley be of a heavenly origin. It will be of a heavenly origin no doubt, but it's heavenly origin does not replace the fact that it will be positioned in the geographical place that God outlined to Abraham (Genesis 13:17)


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Jimmy H

 2010/1/12 12:29Profile









 Re:

Jimmy,

You mentioned a couple of times in the post that Christ was the ultimate _________. (seed, Israel, etc.)

I do not believe in replacement theology, but I do believe that Jesus Christ is the fufilment of all things Israel. As you said, He is ultimately Israel. Well, I don't think we can have it both ways. Either Christ is the True substance, the True First Born Son to whom belongs the entire inheritance, or not. All the promises of God are in Him Yea and Amen.

That being said, I do agree with you that the land covenant God made with Abraham will be fulfilled, but I would not limit it to the land of Israel. The Earth is the Lord's and Jesus Christ spilled His blood, not only for our souls, but to redeem the entire creation. Abraham and all those in Christ who are blessed with faithful Abraham, will inherit the Earth. The meek (all those in Christ) shall inherit the Earth.

We take nothing from Israel, and we take no Glory from God if we declare Jesus Christ to be the fulfillment of everything God promised to Abraham and to Israel.

 2010/1/12 15:33
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

but I do believe that Jesus Christ is the fufilment of all things Israel. As you said, He is ultimately Israel. Well, I don't think we can have it both ways.



Indeed, Christ is ultimate Israel. Isaiah's "Servant Songs" (Isaiah 40-53) make that abundantly clear. But what we must also understand that part of His Messianic task as the "Servant" of the Lord, "Israel," is to do something that has yet to be worked out in redemptive history. And that is ultimately the everlasting securing of the geographical and heavenly land that was promised to the patriarchs, but also, the national salvation of all of the remnant of Israel at the end of the age. I don't have time to go verse by verse through the following passage, but I would highly commend to you a detailed study of Isaiah 49, which outlines these things wonderfully.

Consider some of the following verses that describe this Messianic task:

49:5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength), 6 He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

49:8 Thus says the LORD, "In a favorable time I have answered You, And in a day of salvation I have helped You; And I will keep You and give You for a covenant of the people, To restore the land, to make {them} inherit the desolate heritages;


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Jimmy H

 2010/1/12 18:13Profile
KingJimmy
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 Re:

And just in case anybody forgot, I would point you to the list of Scriptures I originally posted at the start of this thread. I would encourage you to go carefully through the passages I cited. While not by any means exhaustive, I believe they are crucial passages needed to understand many of the issues brothers such as Art raised.


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Jimmy H

 2010/1/12 18:23Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
For in doing so, one can end up developing a theology in which the Church somehow replaces Israel



Hi Jimmy. No, the church does not replace Israel. The church BECOMES the new Israel, which includes an elect remnant of Jews to whom are added elect Gentiles. THIS is the church of Christ: both believing Jews AND believing Gentiles.

It is God's new creation Man. As I quoted earlier, Christ in the Cross broke down the middle wall of partition dividing Jew and Gentile, "for to make (Gk. create) in Himself of twain ONE NEW MAN" (Eph. 2.15).

In the new creation there is no difference between Jew and Gentile any more. "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a NEW CREATURE. And as many as walk by this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the ISRAEL OF GOD" (Gal. 6.15,16).

Who is the Israel of God, then? Those whether Jew or Gentile who are walking according to a New Creation Law, the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

And so God hath not cast away His people, whom He foreknew (Rom. 11.2). What He did was make a New Covenant with them (as you pointed out) "with the house of Israel and the house of Judah," and then brought the Gentiles in to that New Covenant with them, making them partakers with them of His heritage in Christ Jesus... "that the Gentiles should be FELLOWHEIRS, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel" (Eph. 3.6).

It is a hard thing to believe, I know, and so much teaching still refuses to accept what the apostles clearly taught... that in Christ Jesus there is no longer any difference between Jew and Gentile (Rom. 10.12, Rom. 3.22, Acts 15.9). God has created a NEW MAN.

...God loves the Jews equally as He loves the Gentiles. And so He does not have something less for them than He has for us. He does not have for "the church" a rich heavenly heritage, making us "heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8.17) ...but the Jews just get an acreage in Palestine.

Even the patriarch Abraham saw further than that. You quoted the verses about him being a stranger in the land of promise. But somewhere along the way those early fathers caught a glimpse of a higher vision, and so the apostle said, "But NOW..." (notice that word NOW) "...they desire a better country, that is an heavenly..." (Heb. 11.16). It is that Land of our heritage in Christ Jesus. Both Jews and Gentiles TOGETHER become heirs of... what? Of GOD Himself?

Surely... in the light of that, why would they even want an... acreage?

Quote:
You may still be in doubt with what I say.



We agree on that one, Jimmy. :) The land is a spiritual land, the City a spiritual City. The scriptural principal given by the apostle Paul is, "Howbeit, that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual" (1 Cor. 15.46). We see in the Old Testament a natural, an earthly presentation of many things. But with the coming in of the Kingdom of God, the law and the prophets pass away (Lk. 16.16). That is... not that they are totally abandoned, completely shredded; rather, they come into their own now, they are fulfilled, swallowed up, in great, great spiritual REALITY.


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Allan Halton

 2010/1/12 18:58Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
And just in case anybody forgot, I would point you to the list of Scriptures I originally posted at the start of this thread. I would encourage you to go carefully through the passages I cited. While not by any means exhaustive, I believe they are crucial passages needed to understand many of the issues brothers such as Art raised.



And so, Jimmy, if I am reading your heart aright... I want to be sensitive to your desire on this thread, that you simply want to present Art's eschatology for others to examine. Perhaps you weren't expecting or wanting anyone to question his views? (I guess you've gathered I don't accept that his view is in line with that of the apostles of the New Covenant.)

...I know there is a lot of haziness about these things. I anticipate the Lord will clear it all up in His time! Thanks for the opportunity to share, Jimmy.


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Allan Halton

 2010/1/12 19:18Profile
KingJimmy
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 Re:

Quote:

Surely... in the light of that, why would they even want an... acreage?



Instead of trying to go point by point in response, I think I'll just cut to the chase: What is this "spiritual city" and "spiritual land" we are to "inherit?" If we are to be physically resurrected, are we not going to live here on earth in the age to come? When Christ said some will rule over 10 cities and other 5, did he not actually mean tangible places with actual geographical locations? Will we not have a physical dwelling place during that age? Will we not rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years before the new heavens and new earth are established?

If this is indeed the case, then why are you so opposed to the idea of God giving to the Jews in the age to come the land he actually promised to give them? Hebrews 11 teaches very firmly that Abraham actually temporarily sojurned in the land he hoped by faith to receive in the age to come. He knew however, it would only come by means of his resurrection. If it wasn't actually in the geographic location that God had him walk and promised to him, but is instead some sort of intangible mystical spiritual land, how is it that Abraham and the patriarchs are ever have said to sojourn in "the land" of promise?

I'm sorry, but I just don't get what you are getting at. It really doesn't make any sense to me. I'm happy to hear whatever your explination to these things are, but, honestly, I feel your spiritualization and allegorization of these things has made God the giver of empty promises that don't have anything tangible to them.

I just don't get it :)


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Jimmy H

 2010/1/13 12:09Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

And so, Jimmy, if I am reading your heart aright... I want to be sensitive to your desire on this thread, that you simply want to present Art's eschatology for others to examine. Perhaps you weren't expecting or wanting anyone to question his views? (I guess you've gathered I don't accept that his view is in line with that of the apostles of the New Covenant.)

...I know there is a lot of haziness about these things. I anticipate the Lord will clear it all up in His time! Thanks for the opportunity to share, Jimmy.




:)

Due to another brother's request via private e-mail, who is trying to wrestle with Art's eschatology, my original intent was simply to post a small collection of Scriptures that I believe are essential to understanding Bible prophecy and Art's point of view, so that others could be good Bereans and understand these things for themselves.

I do happen to ascribe to Art's eschatological system. I used to not to. But after listening to what he had to say on the topic on many times, and having examined thoroughly the Scriptures for myself to see if the things he said were true, I have become convinced. Due to my schedule, it wasn't my original intention to dive into a discussion on the topic. But with that said, it is a topic I am more than happy to discuss, and welcome any debate on these issues.

I believe with all my heart that it is crucial we grasp these issues as a church. For when God finally does wind everything up, these issues will be brought by God to the attention of not only the church, but the entire world. I believe with all my heart that we can expect the eventual destruction of modern day Jerusalem and Israel, and yet again another holocaust that forces the Jews into a massive global flight to the uttermost ends of the earth. Why? Because God ultimately has a plan for the eventual salvation of the natural fallen branches. And without their salvation at the end of the age, there could be no resurrection of the dead.

But that salvation won't come without a great burning and purging. And it won't come without a witness that the church gives to fallen Israel as it flees from the things to come upon her. And all of this is calculated by God in His wisdom to release the ultimate blessings given by the Lord through the gospel in the ages to come, with the Jews resettled into their desolated cities, and living securely in the land God promised to the fathers. Everlasting joy shall be upon their heads, and so shall all of Israel be saved.


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Jimmy H

 2010/1/13 12:22Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
What is this "spiritual city" and "spiritual land" we are to "inherit?"



This isn't all that easy to answer in 25 words or less... but the City is the new Jerusalem that comes down from God out of Heaven (Rev. 21.2). It's the Tabernacle of God with men. It's His New Creation order (Rev. 21.1) here upon the earth. His will in Heaven, in all its fulness here upon the earth.

In The Revelation we are told this city's dimensions are 12,000 furlongs wide by 12,000 furlongs long... and it is also 12,000 furlongs high. (That's something like 1,500 miles on a a side, and also 1,500 miles high, according the the NASB. But that misses the significance of the actual number 12,000.)

What this means is... it's interesting to note that the dimensions of the Holy of holies in the old tabernacle were 10 x 10 x 10, and in Solomon's temple were 20 x 20 x 20... and so some have suggested that the City of God is actually the Holy of holies, His own throne room and dwelling place now greatly enlarged. I believe that's right. And I think Jer. 3.17 speaks of the same.

And the Land is actually Christ Himself, our heritage. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies in Christ" (Eph. 1.3).

Paul the apostle shows that the exodus of Israel from Egypt and their entrance into their earthly heritage is an "example" for us, "upon whom the ends of the ages are come" (1 Cor. 10.11). Our heritage is not a natural land (Canaan) but a heavenly. (And once again I am not just talking about dying and going to Heaven: I am talking of entering and possessing that heritage NOW while we are still on earth.)

Quote:
some sort of intangible mystical spiritual land



Quote:
I feel your spiritualization and allegorization of these things has made God the giver of empty promises that don't have anything tangible to them.



That's the sad thing, Jimmy. Spiritual reality is far from intangible and mystical. It's REAL. It's the true reality, far more real than the ground you and I are walking on.

In fact Paul said in the passage I referred to that the Israelites coming out of Egypt drank of a "spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ" (1 Cor. 10.4).

He is a spiritual Rock. Spiritual. Not mystical, not ethereal, not intangible, but SPIRITUAL. REAL.

Peter also talks of "a spiritual house," and "spiritual sacrifices" (1 Pt. 2.5). Not intangible, but spiritual.
A spiritual house: not made of wood and stone, but of Living Stones, just like that Rock. A spiritual house.

And spiritual sacrifices. Not bulls and goats... but our own bodies (Rom. 12.1), sanctified by Holy Spirit (Rom. 15.16).

...So, spiritual blessings. A spiritual Rock. A spiritual house. Spiritual sacrifices.

A spiritual City, and a spiritual Land.

Not ethereal, intangible, mystical, but REAL.


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Allan Halton

 2010/1/13 14:02Profile
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 Re:

Jimmy, have you read any of Stephen Sizer on this issue of Zionism?

Do you believe it is God's plan to wipe out the Palestinian Arabs so that Israel can have "its" land back?

To me, this poses a big problem considering all the Christian (who no one can argue are God's elect, being true Israel according to faith) Arabs sharing this land with Christ-hating Israelites.


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Denver McDaniel

 2010/1/13 14:04Profile





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