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HeartSong
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 Re:


EDIT: Forgot to pray before posting.

 2010/1/9 12:44Profile
ginnyrose
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 Re:

So, how close is theology becoming a philosophy?

Sounds to me to be a very dangerous thing to do - to study a 'liberal' theologian and not expect it to undermine the clear teaching of the Word, or influence you in how you will understand the WORD. Is this not like going to "Olive Garden" to eat with a gift certificate but choosing instead to go through the garbage dumpster instead to find your meal?

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2010/1/9 14:47Profile
wayneman
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 Re:

Ginny

Most liberal theology is garbage; Barth wasn't THAT bad. He wasn't Olive Garden either. He was White Castle.

Anyway, Jimmy, can you recommend which sermon or article is the best introduction to Katz's eschatology?


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Wayne Kraus

 2010/1/9 15:09Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

Anyway, Jimmy, can you recommend which sermon or article is the best introduction to Katz's eschatology?



Really, to some degree, you can pick just about any Art Katz sermon available on SI to listen to. His eschatology was the thread that linked almost every one of his sermons together. It's hard to find a sermon, especially anything after 1980, that didn't somehow touch on a topic that spoke about the ultimate plans and purposes of God.

Any sermon about anything "Jewish" or regarding "Israel" will probably do. His series on the Holocaust is good. Ezekiel 37 and the Valley of Dry Bones. Christus Victor. Just about anything from the 2006 Prophetical School series will do. Israel and the Suffering Servant. The Mystery of Israel and the Church. Israel and the Nations. The God of the Nations. Israel in Flight. Endtime Overview. Latent Anti-Semitism. The Coming Holocaust. Praying for the Peace of Jerusalem. etc. etc.

So many could be picked from. Many have asked me for a list from time to time, and I always manage to repeat different sermons, usually depending on what I've most recently listened to (I sometimes go back and listen multiple times to messages I've heard him preach). Really, when in doubt, just randomly pick a sermon from the hundreds he preached. He had a great burden for the great themes of the faith, and usually managed to see them in their eschatological context.

When I say randomly pick one, I'm not just being cute either. I've generally found that though Art sometimes repeated himself, each time he spoke seemed to be a unique "event" where something real and tangible took place each time he spoke.


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Jimmy H

 2010/1/9 16:05Profile
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 Re:

I wonder if a better word to describe how people integrated themselves into how Art saw things was "Affected." I do not think he was a disciple of any one man at all. As a matter of fact listening to his sermons frustrated me for a while because he is not easy to pin down. Just when I thought I had him boxed he would jump out again...and it would startle me every time.

This only makes sense though in lieu of the things he talked about a lot. He commonly refereed to the idea of the Apostolic function of being Fully Orbed.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/1/9 22:19Profile
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 Re: Art Katz's Eschatology

Quote:
*Isaiah 2:1-4


Quote:
Jerusalem will be the center of the universe and source of universal blessing. The law will go forth from Zion.



Jimmy, what Jerusalem would that be, and what Zion, according to the apostles of the New Covenant?

Heb. 12.22


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Allan Halton

 2010/1/9 22:38Profile
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Quote:

Jimmy, what Jerusalem would that be, and what Zion, according to the apostles of the New Covenant?

Heb. 12.22



According to the apostle Paul, in Romans 15:8 it is taught that Christ confirmed the promises made to the Fathers. Thus, Isaiah 2 speaks of the Zion the Lord will establish when he rules and reigns from Jerusalem here on earth in the age to come. It's a city whose architect and builder is God (Hebrews 11:10), to which Abraham looked for, to which we will partake of in the age to come when we are resurrected from the grave. Heaven is not where God is taking us to be, but we will be bodily resurrected to rule and reign here with Christ, not only through the millennium, but through all eternity.


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Jimmy H

 2010/1/9 23:04Profile
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Quote:
According to the apostle Paul, in Romans 15:8 it is taught that Christ confirmed the promises made to the Fathers. Thus, Isaiah 2 speaks of the Zion the Lord will establish when he rules and reigns from Jerusalem here on earth in the age to come. It's a city whose architect and builder is God (Hebrews 11:10), to which Abraham looked for, to which we will partake of in the age to come when we are resurrected from the grave. Heaven is not where God is taking us to be, but we will be bodily resurrected to rule and reign here with Christ, not only through the millennium, but through all eternity.



I understand this point of view, Jimmy, and I think it is a sad one, a very short-sighted one. If this is what Art Katz taught, how does this differ from Scofield's dispensationalism? I would have thought Katz had better eyesight than that.

No, the City Abraham looked for is not one made of wood and stone: it's that heavenly Zion that comes down from God out of Heaven, the Bride of the Lamb (Rev. 21.2). And we know the Bride of the Lamb is the church of Jesus Christ comprised of both Jew and Gentile (for in Christ there is no difference).

And Isaiah Ch. 2... about the LORD's house being established in the top of the mountains, and being exalted above the hills, and the Law going forth, not from Mount Sinai now, but from Mount Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem... this began to happen-- notice I say BEGAN: there is much yet to be fulfilled-- on the day of Pentecost when the Lord Jesus Christ, seated on the throne of David in the heavenly Zion at the right hand of His Father, sent the Spirit to His waiting disciples: "the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus."

...Yes, Jesus Christ confirmed the promises God gave the fathers. But the sons of the fathers weren't too happy with the way He did that. The way He did it was not all that well received by most of them.

...How we need grace to see through the eyes of the Spirit of God!


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Allan Halton

 2010/1/10 11:18Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

I understand this point of view, Jimmy, and I think it is a sad one, a very short-sighted one. If this is what Art Katz taught, how does this differ from Scofield's dispensationalism? I would have thought Katz had better eyesight than that.



Great question. There are elements of dispensational thought found it Art's teachings, which initially turned me off from him. However, I discovered that he cannot be pegged down as a dispensationalist in any proper understanding of the term. Even individuals like Walter Kaiser, Jr, a prominent Old Testament scholar recognizes these things. Just because individuals such as Katz (or myself), recognize the eventual literal fulfillment of these promises doesn't mean one is a dispensationalist.

For a dispensationalist will eventually assert that there are two peoples of God with two different sets of promises and purposes. They will assert a false dichotomy between a heavenly people with heavenly promises, and an earthly people with earthly promises. They assert a violent dichotomy between the Church and Israel. This dichotomy is a false one. We maintain there is one people of God, and one plan and purpose of God for all people. That plan and purpose, however, has always been wrapped up in God's elect nation, who have been called as a people to serve as the medium of the blessings of God to this world through the gospel. His earthly people with their earthly promises are called to be a heavenly people that dispense heavenly promises. The two were never designed by God to be separated from one another.

That is why God entered into covenant with Abraham, that through his seed living in the land God promised, that these things might ultimately come to pass. God's ultimate purposes with Christ and the gospel, and the heavenly blessings He ultimately wishes to dispense to all of humanity cannot be fully dispensed in the abundance He wishes to bestow them in this present evil age. Indeed, it cannot happen until Jerusalem becomes the praise of the earth! In part, we have experienced a down payment of the good things to come in the here and now through the gospel, by means of the Holy Spirit. But we look forward to another age in which we will be raised in new bodies, to experience the fullness of that blessing in our glorified state. And in that age, Jerusalem will be the capitol of the world, from which our King reigns on the throne of David. It will indeed be a heavenly city, a city the patriarchs looked forward to. But it will not be a city that dwells in the upper stratospheres of heaven as it presently does. Rather, it will a city that exits here on earth, with all the blessings that accompany it. It will be a city whose architect and builder is God.


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Jimmy H

 2010/1/10 12:14Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
We maintain there is one people of God, and one plan and purpose of God for all people. That plan and purpose, however, has always been wrapped up in God's elect nation



What nation would that be? It is the one holy nation comprised of both Jew and Gentile, according to the apostle Peter (1 Pt. 2.9).

Quote:
His earthly people with their earthly promises are called to be a heavenly people that dispense heavenly promises. The two were never designed by God to be separated from one another.



That's right (Eph. 2.15). In the Cross, our Lord Jesus Christ broke down the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile, creating in Himself of the two ONE NEW MAN, so that now in Christ there is "no difference" between Jew and Gentile (Rom. 3.22, Rom. 10.12, Acts 15.9). ...So that both Gentiles and Jews are partakers together of the SAME promises (Eph. 3.6).

That being so, do I, a Gentile, have some little plot of land somewhere over there in Israel?

Or does this all, in its FULFILLMENT, pertain to another "land," a heavenly? (Heb. 11.16)

And this of course is speaking of something far more than just "dying and going to Heaven." It is our spiritual heritage in Christ, and we are to seek to enter it NOW.

Quote:
That is why God entered into covenant with Abraham, that through his seed living in the land God promised



Again, what land? Heb. 11.16

And what Seed would that be (according to the apostle Paul, that is)? (Gal. 3.16, Gal. 3.29).

Quote:
Rather, it will a city that exits here on earth, with all the blessings that accompany it. It will be a city whose architect and builder is God.



Yes, it will indeed be here on the earth. But just as Babylon is a spiritual city right here on the earth (and all over the earth) so is Jerusalem a spiritual city, a heavenly city right here in the earth that shall ultimately be over all the earth. (So that I can be dwelling in Jerusalem right where I live, wherever I live!) It's a spiritual City, not that old Jerusalem over there in Israel. In fact even the prophets of old (with pretty good eyesight, I would say) at times called the earthly Jeruslaem "the daughter of Zion" (Isa. 37.22). The mother is the true Jerusalem, the heavenly Jerusalem, which is above, "the mother of us all" (Gal. 4.26).

Yes, that old city shall be included, but the Jerusalem which is the City of God is not one with foundations and walls of earthly stone. It's made of Spiritual stones (you and me and all believers whether Jew or Gentile) ...stones who are just like the Rock Himself (1 Pt. 2.4,5).

How awesome this all is! :)


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Allan Halton

 2010/1/10 12:57Profile





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