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riki
Member



Joined: 2003/11/30
Posts: 78
Sweden

 2 Peter 1:19

I was reading this passage not long ago and I believe it holds important truths. Therefore, I would like to understand it better. Here it is:

[i]16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." 18And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
[b]19And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;[/b] 20knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.[/i]

My questions are:
1. What is "the profetic word" (verse 19)?
2. What does "until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts" refer to? I think I have an idea, but would like your views on the subject.

Longing for the morning star to rise in my heart... :-)

/Rikard


_________________
Rikard Eriksson

 2004/10/3 12:30Profile
eagleswings
Member



Joined: 2003/12/30
Posts: 297
Connecticut, USA

 Re: 2 Peter 1:19



Rikard,

Here is something pulled together from W.Ian Thomas, Elias Trotter and Art Katz. I call it

[b]The Word As Living Seed; Responsinbility; Spirit and Power [/b]

and hope it is at least partially responsive to your two questions:



“A More Sure Word of Prophecy”

What matters is the timeless, unchanging revelation of God’s eternal Truth. And this He has entrusted to us in the “more sure word of prophecy” of which Peter here speaks:

[i]“We have also a more sure word of prophecy whereunto you do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.”[/i]


In other words, until at last in the light of the revelation provided in this “more sure word of prophecy” your soul is flooded with light. That’s why you have a Bible conference. That’s why of course it isn’t my opinion that is of any importance whatever. I”m not here to throw out suggestions. We’re not here in dialogue. Nothing of the truth of God revealed to us in His word is up for auction. Nothing is a subject for debate. It’s a proclamation. Truth isn’t up for auction. Truth isn’t debateable. Truth is never, ever to be the subject of dialogue. Truth is to be proclaimed.

That’s why you’ll find in the record given to us in the Book of the Acts that the expressions are synonymous as they’re used: “They preached the word,” and “They preached Christ.” And whether it says they preached Christ or preached the word, it had the same connotation. It was the proclamation of unchanging Truth: the One Who is the same yesterday, today and forever. And that’s why last evening as we concluded I said that in the preaching of the Gospel you’re not preaching “it”; you’re preaching Him. Somebody Who never changes. It’s a proclamation of Truth.

And you and I aren’t responsible fo the consequences of it. God alone is responsible for the consequences of the preaching of the truth; because the Holy Spirit is the One who, as we proclaim the truth in general, applies that truth in particular to the individual needs of individual people. It’s the planting of a living seed. That’s why the Lord Jesus used the parable of the sower. “The seed,” said the Lord Jesus, “is the word.”. And the sower’s sole responsibility is to plant it, plant it, plant it, plant it. He can’t make it germinate. He can’t produce life. He simply plants that in which Life is to be found. So we plant the seed. And the life is not in the soil, and the life is not in the sower. It’s in the seed.

Where that seed -- in which the life alone may be found -- finds good soil it will germinate, grow, flourish and bear fruit. If it’s bad soil, nothing will happen. No matter how faithfully proclaimed, no matter how deep it may be buried, if the soil is bad nothing will happen. The soil never, ever tests the seed. The seed only, always tests the soil.
So your responsibility and mine, as those who have been commissioned to be His witnesses, is to be faithful sowers of the seed. To proclaim Truth. To be absolutely certain we know the truth, and to proclaim it without apology.

Then you’re not on trial. Whether you witness personally to the neighbor, whether you’re instructing your family around the breakfast table, whether you are a Sunday School teacher or a Bible class leader or whether you’re the pastor in the pulpit, you’re not on trial. So long as your relationship to Jesus Christ is such that, unashamedly, you proclaim Truth, as God has revealed it in His Word, you’re not on trial.

Those in whom you plant the seed are on trial; for the soil never tests the seed; the seed tests the soil. And if nothing happens, it’s bad soil; because it’s very good seed.

--- Major W.Ian Thomas (77BR Ma)



It does not follow that every seed will spring up.
It is not so in the natural world.
The plant’s business is to scatter it.
not witholding, not knowing which shall prosper,
either this or that, or whether they both shall be alike good. (1)
Once scattered, the responsibility is transferred
to the ground that receives it.
But the aim of the plant,
the goal of all the budding, blossoming and ripening.
is that every seed should carry potential life.
Thus we are responsible,
not for the tangible results of our ministry to others,
but for its being a ministry in demonstration of
the Spirit and of power. (2)
Such a ministry,
as will make those around us definitely responsible to God,
for accepting or rejecting the fullness of His salvation.
If so, the signs following will not be wanting.
It will be to the one, the savor of death unto death
and to the other the savor of life unto life. (3)
But whether they will hear or whether they will forbear.
they will know that there hath been a prophet among them. (4)

-- Elias Trotter Parables of the Cross
1 Eccl.11:6
2 1 Cor. 2:4
3 2 Cor. 2:16
4. Ezekiel 2:5; 33:33



“Men have no obligation to hear our opinions, but they shall be held eternally responsible for our convictions.”
Art Katz, Apostolic Confrontation-Paul on Mars Hill


Roger






_________________
Roger P.

 2004/10/3 13:18Profile
riki
Member



Joined: 2003/11/30
Posts: 78
Sweden

 Re:

Roger,

Thank you for your reply, but I'm afraid I still don't see what "the more sure word of profecy" actually is. Does it simply mean the knowledge of Christ as revealed in the Bible, now even more sure, or does it mean something more specific? What is it that I should take heed to?

And this formulation, "until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts", does that mean a revelation of Christ in general? Or could it have to do with the experience of entire sanctification/the second blessing/the sabbath rest of God (or whatever you would like to call it)? At least that was the first idea that came to my mind. But then I'm not sure.

Someone who has some more insight to this?

/Rikard


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Rikard Eriksson

 2004/10/4 15:05Profile
Crysddd
Member



Joined: 2004/10/4
Posts: 12


 Re:

when peter wrote this, it was a time of great revelations to the church as the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon it, fulfilling Christ's promise of the Spirit of truth bringing to remembrance the things he had taught them. There was also at this time alot of other ideas that were not in line with the teachings of Christ. Peter was saying that although he had seen with the physical eye the manifestations of Christ and heard the voice with his physical ears, yet the word of God, was more sure proof of Christ. We walk by faith not by sight. Jesus is the word made flesh, He was a fulfillment of the word of God that began to be spoken in Genesis at the fall of man until the time of His birth by the announcement of the angel. He was the word in every aspect. God spoke Christ into existance and prophesied him in fullness. Every book in the old covenant painted a picture of Christ. When he had risen and walked with them on the road to emmaeus Jesus expounded to them all the prophesies of himself beginning from genesis all the way through the word.

The more sure word of prophecy is the utterances of God concerning Christ in the old testament. It was by these that peter determined that Jesus was the Christ and it is by the word that we live today. now we are born again not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible seed, by the word of God which lives and abides forever. The entrance of God's word brings light,or allows us to see by faith what is ours and who we are in Christ. as we meditate in the word we are transformed into the same image from glory to glory by the Spirit of God working in the word and Christ is manifested in us through the indwelling Holy Spirit. thus the light of our lives in Christ and who we are now in Him, New creatures, is revealed by the word from genesis to revelation. as that happens Jesus Christ is realized and through progressive revealings through the word we are transformed from glory to glory and from faith to faith. It is an exciting life of faith discovering Christ everyday and allowing Him to gain possession of us through our submitting to the "more sure word of prophecy".

Jesus said it very simply in the book of John. He said, "if you have seen me you have seen the father" then he said, " I do nothing unless I first see my father do it". when and where did he see his fahter do it? it was in the scriptures and He just went about fullfilling the scriptures of Himself. but He also said in John 8:31. if you continue in my word then you will be my disciples indeed, and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free".
so now we are to fullfill the word concerning us as we become obedient to Him."and being made perfect He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him". Heb 5:9.


hope this helps....

 2004/10/4 21:43Profile
eagleswings
Member



Joined: 2003/12/30
Posts: 297
Connecticut, USA

 Re: 2 Peter 1:19



Rikard,

You are quite right.
My reply was not precisely to the two points you raised. Sorry.

The "more sure word of prophesy" is the written word. It reveals the Living Word to us.

The more time we spend in the written word, growing familiar with Him, the closer we come to the "day star arising in our hearts", a fuller and fuller understanding of Christ and revelation of Him in our lives.

Cryssddd, said it much better than I do.




Crsyssddd,

Thanks! What you wrote is lovely.



Roger







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Roger P.

 2004/10/4 22:18Profile
Crysddd
Member



Joined: 2004/10/4
Posts: 12


 Re:

Thanks Roger...I am a pastor so I love talking about the word to people. I love this site and I am glad I found a place for so many different viewpoints to come together and discuss their views of Christ

 2004/10/4 22:20Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi riki

Quote:
Thank you for your reply, but I'm afraid I still don't see what "the more sure word of profecy" actually is. Does it simply mean the knowledge of Christ as revealed in the Bible, now even more sure, or does it mean something more specific? What is it that I should take heed to?



There are two ways that this could be understood.
1. that the transfiguration experience confirmed the Old Testament prophecies and thus they were 'more sure'
2.or that the final word is the Old Testament prophecy in that the scripture is 'more sure' even than the transfiguration that Peter witnessed.

The traditional view has been No 2 but several translations opt for No 1.

(ASV) And we have the word of prophecy made more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts:

(NASB) So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.

(YLT) And we have more firm the prophetic word, to which we do well giving heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, till day may dawn, and a morning star may arise--in your hearts;

The topic to which we are to 'take heed' is The Power and Coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Promised in the Old Testament, confirmed in the transfiguration, but with an even greater fulfillment 'when the day dawns. This is what 'the word of prophecy more sure' relates to. Perhaps you recall that the transfiguration is linked with the Kingdom coming in Power; And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.(Mar 9:1-2 KJV) See how the thought runs through these two verses.

The 'in your hearts' bit at the end of v19 is awkward for most commentators, but Greek word-order often does not behave like the English and as the original had no punctuation it is even more difficult to be sure. In fact by removing a single comma the sentence becomes much clearer; We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn and the day star arise, in your hearts: (2Pe 1:19 KJV) The overall sense then is that we are to take heed in our hearts to the Power and Coming of The Lord Jesus Christ. This is what the Young's literal translation (YLT) above has done. You can see the --in your hearts separated from the other part of the sentence. I think this works well and would be my choice.

In direct answer to your question, I expect it was this 'in your hearts' phrase which caused you to think of sanctification, but I think separating the phrase 'in your hearts' makes this much easier to understand, and I don't believe Sanctification, as an experience, is in view in these verses.

This passage continues; Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2Pe 1:20 KJV) This is a first principle that the prophetic scripture is not the result of private interpretation but is the result of the moving of the Holy Spirit in the writers. This would be in contrast with the 'cunningly devised fables' of verse 16.

In short... the prophetic word predicted the Power and Coming of Christ. It was confirmed by the transfiguration, of which Peter was an eye-witness. This truth of the Power and Coming of Christ is one to which we do well to take heed in our hearts. It is a light that continues to shine in the darkness, but the day is coming and the day star will arise. The prophetic word that was confirmed did not come as a result of private interpretation but as the result of the Holy Spirit at work in the prophets. The Power and Coming of Christ was predicted by the prophets, confirmed by the transfiguration and will have its full revelation.

As an old friend of mine used to say... see you in the Morning!


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/10/5 14:24Profile
riki
Member



Joined: 2003/11/30
Posts: 78
Sweden

 Re:

Crysddd,

Thank you for your reply and for helping me setting the stage a bit. Quite helpful. I reacted at this statement:

Quote:
Peter was saying that although he had seen with the physical eye the manifestations of Christ and heard the voice with his physical ears, yet the word of God, was more sure proof of Christ.


When I read the passage both in my Swedish bibles and in the NKJV, I interpreted it in another way, as meaning that the profetic word was confirmed by the transfiguration. Therefore I started consulting the commentaries by Barnes, Clarke and Gill, which was a good thing, since it opened my eyes even more. So thanks.



Ron,

Thank you so much for this very clear exposistion. The Lord is obviously using you... ..for which I'm glad. :-)

In fact, as I said, I was just reading in some commentaries and the whole thing was getting clearer. And then I read you reply which was just on the spot, summing everything up perfectly! Isn't it just too cool when these things happen? The Lord gave me quite some insights tonight. Actually, I put your reply as study notes in my e-sword... Hope you don't mind... :-P


/Rikard


_________________
Rikard Eriksson

 2004/10/5 15:21Profile





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