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ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Hi Dave:

Actually I didn't use the word allegorical; I don't think the word allegorical quite does justice to what this is all about.

Not allegorical. Spiritual.

These "signs" signify a spiritual reality.

Take Rev. 12.1, for example. "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun..."

Those who insist on the literal interpretation, do they actually believe there is a woman in heaven clothed with the sun and with the moon under her feet? And a literal great red dragon with seven heads?

No, this is a sign speaking of a spiritual reality. The word "wonder" is from the same root as the word I mentioned in Rev. 1.1, He sent and "signified..." (Which, by the way, is competely abandoned by most translations other than the KJV.)

And so I don't hold that the 1,000 years is speaking of a literal 1,000 year period of time. And I don't think it's merely allegorical either. I think this represents a spiritual reality... which quite honestly I don't fully comprehend the full meaning of just yet. There are aspects of this that I don't understand. And I'm perfectly happy to leave it that way till my Lord in His good time makes it known. I'd rather do that than wrest the Scriptures to my own destruction (2 Pt. 3.16).


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/12/26 13:27Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Dave wrote:

Quote:
Do I take it that the majority on this site are premillenialists?



I can't say how others pigeon-hole themselves... but I for one am uncomfortable being labelled with any of these pre- post- etc. labels.

I get very uncomfortable with this kind of thing... I don't think someone who has seen the Lord or had dealings with Him could attempt to set out so matter-of-factly His vast and awesome end-time purposes... as if they've got it all figured out.

Be sure of it: just when these ones think they've got Truth all nicely tamed and domesticated, He will do something that leaves them utterly dismayed.

I just wish... sometimes we forget, I think, that these are HOLY things, and here we are with our hands all over them. The last time a man did that you know what happened to him.

Quote:
Is there any precendence for an old Testament prophecy that we can see has now been fulfilled in not a literal way, but shows us it was an allegory.



Not so much an allegory, as I said in the previous post. But speaking of a spiritual reality to come. And I think there are many. Many. Acts 2.1 comes to mind. Pentecost, an old testament feast, was fulfilled. the true reality of Pentecost, the reality God had in mind when He gave the type in the first place, came into being as one aspect of the New Covenant. The same with Passover. "Christ our passover..." (Edit: And from that point onward the old was to be abandoned. It was swallowed up in the New, and done away.)

A rule I always bear in mind is that all Old Testament scriptures must be seen now and understood in the light of the New Covenant. It's a very profitable thing--and invaluable, I would add: we MUST do this, we CANNOT neglect this-- to read the New Testament and pay very close attention to how the New Covenant apostles interpreted Old Testament scripture and prophecy.


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/12/26 14:13Profile









 Re:

A Disciple said:

Quote:
And I'm perfectly happy to leave it that way till my Lord in His good time makes it known. I'd rather do that than wrest the Scriptures to my own destruction

YES! YES! YES!

A Disciple said:
Quote:
A rule I always bear in mind is that all Old Testament scriptures must be seen now and understood in the light of the New Covenant. It's a very profitable thing--and invaluable, I would add: we MUST do this, we CANNOT neglect this-- to read the New Testament and pay very close attention to how the New Covenant apostles interpreted Old Testament scripture and prophecy.

Again AMEN. I must add that so many put stock in watching and reading the News to fit their pet bible prophecies into instead of interpreting from the word of God. I agree with you brother that it's not an allegory (it's not something that is liken unto) rather a spiritual reality.

Dave Said:
Quote:
Deepthinker and Waltern, you really can't resist a fight can you! I know it could be a contentious issue, but also made it clear what I was looking for folks to answer.

Believe me Dave, I had you in mind while posting that I didn't want to turn this into some tribulation debate, I was hoping that it would turn back to the original intent. And I do NOT like to argue this subject. It's one of the subjects that is the least on my mind, but when provoked I do jump into the ring. In my mind it's not contentious, I think it's a fun subject because so much has been opened to me. So having said that I'll focus my attention on the subject at hand.

 2009/12/26 14:19









 Re:




[b]To A-Disciple & DeepThinker:[/b]

How convenient. The Bible is no longer allegory to either of you (as if that is not bad enough), but now it is “Spiritual”, and as such you as individuals can pick and choose what it means. Your position on this issue places you alongside the Roman Catholic Church, Mormonism, and every Christian cult that there is.

With your view on Revelation (I assume you have this same view for the entire Bible) will make it easy for you to discount the Word of God because you feel a “buring in your bosom”.

I remember witnessing to a Catholic once about the Book of Revelation, and about how easy it was to understand. He would not even allow me to open the Book in front of him, to show him. In fact, he would not even discuss the issue with me. He has been a Catholic for 50 years and has been brainwashed by the heresy of Rome.

[b]What does the Bible say about itself?

THE BIBLE ON THE BIBLE[/b]


2 Timothy 3:6
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

The Goal of the Bible: To help us trust that the Bible consists of God's words for us (inspiration), and those words are factually correct (inerrant) and are reliable to lead us as we aim to live life to its fullest (infallible).

[b]The Bible is God's Message for Us[/b]

Inspiration means the Bible records words from God to us as if God had said them Himself, and not just as from the human who wrote them down. How inspiredare the Scriptures?
2 Timothy 3:16
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

[b]Who directed the people who wrote the Bible?[/b]
2 Peter 1:21
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

[b]How long will God's words still be true for us?[/b]
Isaiah 40:8
"The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."

[b]The Bible Helps Us In Life[/b]

[color=990000][b]What is necessary for us to grow closer to God?
Matthew 4:4
"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."[/color][/b]

[b] How important was God's Word to Job?[/b]
Job 23:12?
"Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food."

[b]What was the Bible compared to in 1 Peter 2:22?[/b]
1 Peter 2:2
"As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:"

[b]What two things is the Bible compared to in Psalm 119:105? Why would those things be used to describe the Bible?[/b]
Psalm 119:105
"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."

[b]What two things does Psalm 119:130 say the Bible gives us?[/b]
Psalm 119:130
"The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple."

[b]The Bible Opens God's Power To Us[/b]

[b]Why wasn't Paul ashamed of the gospel?[/b]
Romans 1:16
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

[b]What effect does Psalm 119:9, 11 say God's words can have in our lives?[/b]
Psalm 119:9, 11
"9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. 11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee."


[b]What does Ephesians 6:17 say is a great defensive weapon against sin? How do you think we can use it?[/b]

Ephesians 6:17
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"

[b]Studying The Bible Brings Us Benefits Now

What does 1 John 5:13 say was one reason the Bible was written?[/b]

1 John 5:13
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

[b]What does John 5:39 tell us about Bible study?
John 5:39[/b]

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

[b]How often did the Bereans study the Bible for themselves?
Acts 17:11[/b]

"These [the Bereans] were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

[b]How trustworthy was the Bible to the people who lived in the times 1 Kings 8:56 was written?[/b]
1 Kings 8:56
"Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant."

[b]What purpose does John 20:31 say John the Apostle had as he wrote his book? What could reading the words of the Gospel of John bring?[/b]

John 20:31
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

[b]Revelation 1:1 tells us about the purpose of the Book we are discussing and why the Ressurected Jesus Christ came to the Isle of Patmos to reveal the future to John, the Apostle, as well as all true believers after John:[/b]

[color=990000][b]Revelation 1

1.The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2.[u] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.[/u]

Revelation 4

1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; [u]which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.[/u]

Revelation 22

12. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18[u]. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.[/u][/color][/b]


Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/12/26 15:42
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

AD,

First let me say I'm sorry that both you and deepthinker have been Walterised! Although I have always ascribed to the pre-milenial view, I do have a problem with the pre-mil / pre-trib people who have every detail of future prophecy neatly accounted for in their dispensational charts etc.

Now to your points...
I'm sorry you did not say 'allegorial', I was just assuming that word to cover 'not literal' as we understnad it.

Quote:
Take Rev. 12.1, for example. "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun..." Those who insist on the literal interpretation, do they actually believe there is a woman in heaven clothed with the sun and with the moon under her feet? And a literal great red dragon with seven heads?

I would have no problem accepting that this is obviously meant to represet Israel and the devil, as we can find these references back in the OT. However this is completely different to numbers of years as I see it.
Quote:
I get very uncomfortable with this kind of thing... I don't think someone who has seen the Lord or had dealings with Him could attempt to set out so matter-of-factly His vast and awesome end-time purposes... as if they've got it all figured out.

I agree with this!
Quote:
Not so much an allegory, as I said in the previous post. But speaking of a spiritual reality to come. And I think there are many. Many. Acts 2.1 comes to mind. Pentecost, an old testament feast, was fulfilled. the true reality of Pentecost, the reality God had in mind when He gave the type in the first place, came into being as one aspect of the New Covenant. The same with Passover. "Christ our passover..." (Edit: And from that point onward the old was to be abandoned. It was swallowed up in the New, and done away.)

I would agree that Christ is the fulfilment of prophecy, but also hold that this does not take away from the literal as well. I think both can be tru. A fulfilment is not neccesarily the same as replacing the literal.

However I appreciate your explanations as I wanted to understand why you thought this way... I'm still not convinced though!


_________________
Dave

 2009/12/26 17:38Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

DeepThinker,

Quote:
Believe me Dave, I had you in mind while posting that I didn't want to turn this into some tribulation debate, I was hoping that it would turn back to the original intent. And I do NOT like to argue this subject. It's one of the subjects that is the least on my mind, but when provoked I do jump into the ring. In my mind it's not contentious, I think it's a fun subject because so much has been opened to me. So having said that I'll focus my attention on the subject at hand.

I'm sorry if I came on a bit strong, but I could see this post becoming a scripture granade throwing war (with reams of scritures being posted!
Quote:
Again AMEN. I must add that so many put stock in watching and reading the News to fit their pet bible prophecies into instead of interpreting from the word of God. I agree with you brother that it's not an allegory (it's not something that is liken unto) rather a spiritual reality.

I agree with you there is far too much of this irresponsible thing going on. However not all pre-millenial subscribers go down this road!

Nothing substantial has been posted by you guys yet on taking the spiritual interpretation only on future prophecy to convince me!:)


_________________
Dave

 2009/12/26 17:47Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
Nothing substantial has been posted by you guys yet on taking the spiritual interpretation only on future prophecy to convince me!:)



Well Dave, we'll just keep walking together toward the Light. In due time we'll both be seeing more clearly. :)


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/12/26 18:23Profile









 Re:

a disciple said:

Quote:
Well Dave, we'll just keep walking together toward the Light. In due time we'll both be seeing more clearly. :)

Those words touched my spirit. Thank you brother.

Psalms 133:1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

And Dave, I would rather you come off as strong. If the correction or rebuke is valid I will receive it, the LORD has brought me a long ways and has knocked out a lot of pride (there is still some there) and the attitude of "Being Right" has no glory in it and does nothing in winning a brother.

God Bless

Now back to the subject......

 2009/12/26 18:36
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Walter,

You've directed a couple of posts toward me recently, and I know I haven't responded.

But I want you to know I am not purposely trying to ignore you. It's just that I don't really know what to say. I feel burdened about where you're at, and don't really know what to say.

I wish I could encourage you, Walter, to just get before the Lord and humbly ask Him to help you with some heart searching.


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/12/26 18:39Profile









 Re:

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 PE 3:8)

This section of scripture is not saying that God reckons time as so much smaller a deal than mankind does, since God is eternal. It is not saying anything of the sort! This is a famous distortion of scripture.

Notice the actual context of the passage:

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pe 3:3-9)

This is speaking about the veracity of God's promises based upon whether or not they can stand the test of time. Peter said that it is ridiculous to doubt the Lord's coming on the basis that the duration of time since the promise was given has been so long that "our fathers fell asleep". Peter explained that God's promises are not weakened as time passes before they are fulfilled. God is able to ensure that a promise is kept whether a day passes for the fulfillment or one thousand years. The amount of time that has elapsed since God made a promise does not affect the possibility of that promise coming to pass one iota.

The reason some of His promises have not been fulfilled after so long a time since they were pronounced is due to the fact that God is longsuffering. This is particularly referring to judgment. And God's word concerning coming judgment is not weakened because of decades having elapsed since it was first foretold. God was simply giving the people all the chances in the world they might need, in order to repent. He does not want anyone to perish. He does not rejoice in judging people in wrath. It's not as though He is hasty to hurt.

But this passage in no way is telling us that God's calendar looks at one day as we would regard one thousand years. It is contrasting long periods of time with short periods of time -- one thousand years as opposed to a day -- and is saying that the assurance of the promise being fulfilled is the same whether one day has passed or one thousand years has passed. This is not saying God sees one thousand years as one day.

We could read it like this: "The surety of a promise being fulfilled over one day or one thousand years is the same, when it comes to God making the promise." With God, we have no worries. With God, a promise that He means to fulfill in one day is the same in quality of the assurance of fulfillment as a promise He ordained to bring to pass in one thousand years.

Men might be unable to fulfill a promise after a few hundred years pass by, of course. But when we are dealing with God, there is no need to despair. With God, fulfilling a promise over one thousand years is just as easy as fulfilling one over one day's duration. That is what Peter is actually saying.

It is absolutely irrelevant for the Lord to note a frame of reference according to His eternal oversight when speaking to men. To say that Revelation's references to the Lord coming "quickly" are spoken from God's viewpoint, who considers millennia as we do mere days, is to imply that God forgets about our perspective, and ignores our limitations of thought. If a proposed "quick" coming meant two thousand years, since two thousand years is hardly no time at all in the mind of a God who has no limitations with time as we do, then all other divinely inspired references in the Bible of a quick coming "at hand" must refer to approximately refer to two thousand years as well.

Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God being "at hand." He repeated John the Baptist's words concerning the same. We know the Kingdom came when the church came, because we enter the Kingdom by being born of the water and of the Spirit.

And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Mat 3:2)

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Mat. 4:17)

"At hand" means very, very soon, in our human terms

 2009/12/26 20:45





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