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 Re: When does 1000 years mean 1000 years

Quote:
In 2 Peter 3:8 it says 'with the Lord one day [b]"Is As"[/b] a thousand years'.

It's the same thing as saying, [b]"Liken Unto"[/b]. He's not giving a prophetic utterance. It's a statement of fact regarding the LORD that He is not bound by time, something that we cannot fathom while in this house of clay.

 2009/12/24 17:57
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Quote:
waltern wrote:I hold the Pre-mil, Pre-Trib view. I can support that by Scripture, if anyone is interested.God bless, and Merry Christmas to everyone!

Walter



Please not on this post as for reason I have given already Thanks.


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Dave

 2009/12/24 18:05Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re: When does 1000 years mean 1000 years

Quote:
I especially want to hear from those who do not take a literal view of this as I want to understand your position so I can consider if it makes sense(not to argue).



Okay, Dave... I'll take you up on this (a bit reluctantly: I definitely have no desire to argue or enter into contention with anybody about this.)

The reason I don't take it literally is that The Revelation was given to John in "signs."

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and [b]signified[/b] it by His angel unto His servant John" (Rev. 1.1).

"Having sent signified by His angel..." is the more literal translation.

And the word "signified" is "esemanen" which is from the same word translated "sign" (semeon) or "wonder" in other places.

"First aorist indicative of semaino, from sema, sign or token... suits admirably the symbolic character of the book." (Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament)

This, to me, is the key that unlocks the whole book. The book is full, chock-full, of signs.

The numbers included. Numbers in scripture are very often symbolic.

Even in The Revelation, the number 7 is very symbolic. When John talks of the "seven Spirits before His throne," we know certainly there are not seven Holy Spirits, but one. The seven-fold Spirit... speaking of the absolute fulness of the Spirit.

And so I think the number 1,000 is symbolic. I think it is symbolic of the Kingdom of God in which His Melchizedek priesthood reigns with Him.

I'll just leave that with you. Much more could be said, but I am leaving for the evening.

Again, Blessings to you, and to all!


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/12/24 18:55Profile
Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Quote:

ADisciple wrote:

And so I think the number 1,000 is symbolic.



Great word study on signified ADisciple. I had never considered that word in my readings.

What would also go along with this view is the symbolic use of 1,000 throughout scripture to indicate "all." For example:

Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

Certainly God owns all cattle on every hill not merely the ones found on a particular 1,000.

Or here:

Psa 84:10 For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand.

Certainly the correlation being made is that a day in God's presence is better than an eternity from His presence, not merely making some sort of day for day formula by which one measures the worth of God's presence.

These are merely 2 which indicate that numbers are used symbolically in the Word, on top of the word study proof previously highlighted. Most preterists/partial preterists subscribe to this interpretation.


_________________
Paul

 2009/12/24 19:29Profile









 Re: The Millennium





To DeepThinker:


What are we to believe about the 1,000 year Millennium, that Messiah has promised to Israel? Many believers today have their own opinions about the matter. Of course, they are only opinions, unless they are supported by Scripture.

Job, through the power of the Holy Spirit, had this to say about the coming Millennium:

Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
[color=990000][b]For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.[/color][/b]

[b]So, we have to ask ourselves, are their people, living on the earth today that have been resurrected from the dead, in their glorified bodies like Jesus Christ?

Of course not, yet those that believe the Millennium is in full swing have no interest in Scripture to support their “opinions”.[/b]

As we search for more Scripture that reveals what it will be like in Millennium, and as we look around us, do we find that Jesus Christ has returned to the earth, and dwells in Jerusalem, and that people from all over the globe are going their to be taught the ways of Messiah, in order to walk in His paths? Have nations beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks? Are all of the nations of the world at peace, and given up war as a method of getting their way?

This is what Isaiah has to tell us about how it will be in the Millennium:

Isaiah 2:1-4
[color=990000][b]The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.[/color][/b]




As we search the Scripture, that reveals more of the Millennium to us, do we see that the people now living in Jerusalem are called Holy? Do we see that Jesus Christ, the Messiah has purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning?


Isaiah 4

[color=990000][b]And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. And the Lord will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.[/color][/b]

As we look to the City of Jerusalem today, do we find the throne of Messiah, Jesus Christ, established there?

Isaiah 16:5
[color=990000][b]And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.[/color][/b]


As we look at Israel today, does it meet the following description of how it will be in the Millennium?

Isaiah 35:1-10
The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. 2. It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.
3. Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees. [color=990000][b] 4. Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you. 5. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. 6. Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert. 7. And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes. 8. And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called the way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. 9. No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: 10. And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away. [/color][/b]

Today, as we look to Israel, do we find that the Jews have already been cleansed from their iniquities? Do we find that the Lord has cleansed us from our iniquities?

Ezekiel 36:33-38
[color=990000][b] 33. Thus saith the Lord God; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities [/color][/b] I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
34. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35. And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36. Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the Lord build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the Lord have spoken it, and I will do it. 37. Thus saith the Lord God; I will yet for this be inquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
38. As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the Lord.

Have the prophetic words of Hosea below been fulfilled? If not, then we are not in the Millennium

Hosea 1:10-11
10. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. 11. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

As we look at Israel today, is the following prophecy of the Millennium fulfilled?

Hosea 3:5
[color=990000][b] Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.[/color][/b]

As we look at Israel, as well as the entire planet, do we see any of the following as being fulfilled? These things will all be fulfilled before everyone’s eyes in the Millennium:

Micah 4:3-5
[color=990000][b] 3. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 4. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.
5. For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever. [/color][/b]

As we look at Israel today, does everyone stand and feed in the strength of the Lord, Jesus Christ, the Messiah? This will only occur during the Millennium!
Micah 5:3-4
[color=990000][b] 3. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. 4. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.[/color][/b]

As we look at Israel today, has any of the following occurred, that lead up to the 1,000 year Millennial reign of Jesus Christ upon this earth? Have the Jews in Israel today looked upon Jesus Christ, who they have pierced, and mourned for Him, as one mourns for his only son? Have they been in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn? Has this event already occurred, or is it a future event?

Zechariah 12:2-14

2. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4. In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God. 6. In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7. The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8. In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.[color=990000][b] 9. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13. The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14. All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.[/color][/b]




Right now, today, has any of Ezekiel 34:11-31 come to pass? How about what is highlighted in red, below. Has that occurred, or is it a future event, promised to the Jews by Messiah, by Jesus Christ, the Word, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, through the Ezekiel, the Prophet of God?

Ezekiel 34:11-31
11. For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. 12. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. 13. And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14. I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. 15. I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God. 16. I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment. 17. And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. 18. Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? 19. And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet. 20. Therefore thus saith the Lord God unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. 21. Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; 22. Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. [color=990000][b] 23. And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24. And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it. 25. And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. 26. And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27. And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. 28. And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them;[u] but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. 29. And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. 30. Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God. 31. And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.[/u][/color][/b]

[color=990000][b]As we look at the world today, and we read what Isaih has to say about what occurs in the Millennium,can we see any of the below prophecies as already being fulfilled? Does the wolf dwell with the lamb today? Does the leopard lie down with the kid (goat), do we see a little child being able to lead a young lion and a calf, and a fatling, together? Do we see the lion eating straw, instead of meat? All of these things will occur during the Millennium[/color][/b]

Isaiah Chapter 11

1. And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2. And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; 3. And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4. But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. [color=990000][b] 5. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. 10. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.[/color][/b]
12. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13. The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14. But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15. And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16. And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.



What are we to believe about the 1,000 year Millennium, that Messiah has promised to Israel? Many believers today have their own opinions about the matter. Of course, they are only opinions, unless they are supported by Scripture.

Job, through the power of the Holy Spirit, had this to say about the coming Millennium:

Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
[color=990000][b]For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.[/color][/b]

So, we have to ask ourselves, are their people, living on the earth today that have been resurrected from the dead, in their glorified bodies like Jesus Christ?

Of course not, yet those that believe the Millennium is in full swing have no interest in Scripture to support their “opinions”.

As we search for more Scripture that reveals what it will be like in Millennium, and as we look around us, do we find that Jesus Christ has returned to the earth, and dwells in Jerusalem, and that people from all over the globe are going their to be taught the ways of Messiah, in order to walk in His paths? Have nations beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks? Are all of the nations of the world at peace, and given up war as a method of getting their way?

This is what Isaiah has to tell us about how it will be in the Millennium:
Isaiah 2:1-4
[color=990000][b]The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.[/color][/b]




As we search the Scripture, that reveals more of the Millennium to us, do we see that the people now living in Jerusalem are called Holy? Do we see that Jesus Christ, the Messiah has purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning?


Isaiah 4

[color=990000][b]And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. And the Lord will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.[/color][/b]

As we look to the City of Jerusalem today, do we find the throne of Messiah, Jesus Christ, established there?

Isaiah 16:5
[color=990000][b]And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.[/color][/b]


As we look at Israel today, does it meet the following description of how it will be in the Millennium?

Isaiah 35:1-10
The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. 2. It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.
3. Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.
[color=990000][b] 4. Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you. 5. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. 6. Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
7. And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
8. And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called the way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. 9. No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
10. And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away. [/color][/b]

Today, as we look to Israel, do we find that the Jews have already been cleansed from their iniquities? Do we find that the Lord has cleansed us from our iniquities?

Ezekiel 36:33-38
[color=990000][b] 33. Thus saith the Lord God; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities [/color][/b] I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
34. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35. And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36. Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the Lord build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the Lord have spoken it, and I will do it.
37. Thus saith the Lord God; I will yet for this be inquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
38. As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the Lord.


Hosea 1:10-11
10. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

As we look at Israel today, is the following prophecy of the Millennium fulfilled?
Hosea 3:5
[color=990000][b] Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.[/color][/b]

As we look at Israel, as well as the entire planet, do we see any of the following as being fulfilled? These things will all be fulfilled before everyone’s eyes in the Millennium:

Micah 4:3-5
[color=990000][b] 3. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 4. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.
5. For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever. [/color][/b]

As we look at Israel today, does everyone stand and feed in the strength of the Lord, Jesus Christ, the Messiah? This will only occur during the Millennium!
Micah 5:3-4
[color=990000][b] 3. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
4. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.[/color][/b]

As we look at Israel today, has any of the following occurred, that lead up to the 1,000 year Millennial reign of Jesus Christ upon this earth? Have the Jews in Israel today looked upon Jesus Christ, who they have pierced, and mourned for Him, as one mourns for his only son? Have they been in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn? Has this event already occurred, or is it a future event?

Zechariah 12:2-14

2. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4. In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.
6. In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7. The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8. In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
[color=990000][b] 9. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13. The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14. All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.[/color][/b]




Right now, today, has any of Ezekiel 34:11-31 come to pass? How about what is highlighted in red, below. Has that occurred, or is it a future event, promised to the Jews by Messiah, by Jesus Christ, the Word, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, through the Ezekiel, the Prophet of God?

Ezekiel 34:11-31
11. For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. 12. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. 13. And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14. I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. 15. I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God. 16. I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment. 17. And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. 18. Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? 19. And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet. 20. Therefore thus saith the Lord God unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. 21. Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; 22. Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. [color=990000][b] 23. And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24. And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it. 25. And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. 26. And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27. And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. 28. And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them;[u] but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. 29. And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. 30. Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God. 31. And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.[/u][/color][/b]

As we look at the world today, can we see any of the below prophecies as already being fulfilled? Does the wolf dwell with the lamb today? Does the leopard lie down with the kid (goat), do we see a little child being able to lead a young lion and a calf, and a fatling, together? Do we see the lion eating straw, instead of meat? All of these things will occur during the Millennium

Isaiah Chapter 11

1. And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2. And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; 3. And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4. But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. [color=990000][b] 5. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. 10. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.[/color][/b]
12. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13. The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14. But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15. And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16. And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.


Are all nations today serving Israel? This will occur during the Millennium. If they do not serve Israel, Messiah, Jesus Christ will destroy them.

Isaiah 60:12-15
12. For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. 13. The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. 14. The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the Lord, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. 15. Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

Today, do we see the Nations coming to Jerusalem, to see the glory of Messiah, Jesus Christ and to praise Him? This will occur during the Millennium

Isaiah 66:18-19
18. For I know their works and their thoughts: [color=990000][b] it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.[/color][/b] 19. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles
afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; [color=990000][b] and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.[/color][/b]

[b]Today, as we look around us, can we see that Christ has broken the instruments of war- the bow, and the sword? Read about the wonderful things that will happen during the Millennium, and then tell me that they have already been fulfilled![/b]

Hosea 2:17-23
17. For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. 18. And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. 19. And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. 20. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord. 21. And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the Lord, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; 22. And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. 23. And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

[b]Does the entire earth today have one language, a pure language, that his been promised to us by God? Are any of these promises of the Millennium fulfilled, or are they ALL FUTURE EVENTS?[/b]

Zephaniah 3:9-17
9. For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent. 10. From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.
11. In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
12. I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the Lord. 13. The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. 14. Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. 15. The Lord hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the Lord, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. 16. In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack. 17. The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.


[b]Jesus Christ, Messiah, the Word, has told us that He will return to this earth, with his holy angels with him, and separate the sheep from the goats, before he ushers in the Millennium. Has that occurred yet, or is it future?[/b]

Matthew 25:31-33
31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


[b]As we look to Israel today, to Jerusalem, do we see the nations of the world come to Jerusalem each year to worship the King, the Lord of Hosts, Jesus Christ and to keep the feast of Tabernacles as a Memorial to Him? If we do not, then we are not in the Millennium. The Millennium is a future event, to be sure.[/b]

Zechariah 14:16-21
16. And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts


If we see none of the above, then we surely must understand that the Millennium is a future event. It has never happened in the past, ever. And once it starts, it will continue for 1,000 years.

God bless,

Walter

Quote:

DeepThinker wrote:
Those who hold to the Pre-Trib rapture must first find out where the 7 years of Great Tribulation is in scripture to support that teaching. Now Paul said through much Tribulation we enter the kingdom of God. Jesus said in Revelation that one of the Churches would receive 10 days of tribulation. But to find 7 years of "Great Tribulation" is not in our bible. C.I.Scofield had a bible printed so that he could insert that idea into the bible students mind way back in the day. So the introduction of the 7 years of "Great Tribulation" was born. It's only an idea, and it's NOT scripture.

Know what you believe!

 2009/12/25 14:51









 Re: Once believed that way


Waltern I do understand your take, I ONCE believed in a Pre Trib treaching. It would be a vain thing to explain the verses that you have supplied because you see them as literal. Though there are some literal interpretations but mostly it's all in signs, similitude's and shadows.

Sufficient is to say that I cannot return to that teaching.

Sincerely and Thank you

 2009/12/25 16:00









 Re:

n

 2009/12/25 16:54
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

ADisiple,

I appreciate your reply... the only one to answer what I asked.

Deepthinker and Waltern, you really can't resist a fight can you! I know it could be a contentious issue, but also made it clear what I was looking for folk to answer.

Waltern I am pretty clear on the pre-milenial view and am of that persuasion myself, so as I said before I am not looking to have this position explaind.

Thanks,

Hope you all had/are having a good Christmas.


_________________
Dave

 2009/12/25 17:41Profile









 Re: DeepThinker & The Pope of Rome




To ADisciple:

My problem with DeepThinker is the fact that he totally accepts every prophecy, found in the Old Testament, about the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ as fact. There are about sixty different prophecies, with more than 300 references of the coming Messiah in the Old Testament, and DeepThinker has no problem with any of them. They are not allegories to him, but true prophecies.

However, there are many, many prophecies of the [b]2nd coming of Jesus Christ and his promised Millenium[/b](1,000 year physical reign on the earth, where Jesus rules with a rod of iron)in the Old Testament as well. These prophecies were given by the same Holy Spirit who inspired the prophets to fortell of the coming Messiah, before he was ever born.[color=990000] [b]Yet, DeepThinker finds no problem with discounting all of these prophecies to be nothing more than Allegory. In effect, he places himself alongside the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church, who have declared the entire Book of Revelation is nothing more than Allegory![/color][/b]

xxxxxx
AL'LEGORY, n. [Gr. other, to speak, a forum, an oration.]
A figurative sentence or discourse, in which the principal subject is described by another subject resembling it in its properties and circumstances. The principal subject is thus kept out of view, and we are left to collect the intentions of the writer or speaker, by the resemblance of the secondary to the primary subject. Allegory is in words that hieroglyphics are in painting. We have a fine example of an allegory in the eightieth Psalm, in which God's chosen people are represented by a vineyard. The distinction in scripture between a parable and an allegory, is said to be that a parable is a supposed history, and an allegory, a figurative description of real facts. An allegory is called a continued metaphor. The following line in Virgil is an example of an allegory.
Claudite jam rivos, pueri, sat prata biberunt.
Stop the currents, young men, the meadows have drank sufficiently; that is let your music cease, our ears have been sufficiently delighted.
xxxxxxxx

[color=990000]Jesus Christ is very clear about this issue:
After speaking of the Great Tribulation,[u] Jesus warns his disciples about false Christs and false prophets who will seek to mislead them into believing Jesus has already secretly come [/u](Matthew 24:23-26). But Jesus says that when He returns everyone will see Him. He uses the illustration of lightning, which is hard to hide, as everyone can see it (Matthew 24:27-28). Jesus continues, saying that after the Tribulation the sun will darken, the moon will not be as bright and stars will fall from the sky. Then, after all this He will return, with everyone seeing Him. A trumpet blast will also accompany His return (Matthew 24:29-31).[/color]

[color=990000][b]None of the prophesies concerning the 2nd coming of Messiah (Jesus Christ) and his promised Millennium have been fulfilled. However, they are just as sure as those of the coming Messiah, that have already been fulfilled.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

Heydave wrote:
ADisiple,

I appreciate your reply... the only one to answer what I asked.

Deepthinker and Waltern, you really can't resist a fight can you! I know it could be a contentious issue, but also made it clear what I was looking for folk to answer.

Waltern I am pretty clear on the pre-milenial view and am of that persuasion myself, so as I said before I am not looking to have this position explaind.

Thanks,

Hope you all had/are having a good Christmas.

 2009/12/26 0:24
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

There has been very little explanation offered about why the doctrine of a 1,000 year period (the Millenium) after the return of Christ is not to be taken literally.
Do I take it that the majority on this site are premillenialists?

ADisciple / Deepthinker / Paulmcg1, I see the main point so far from you who have offered a reason is that the 1,000 years is allegorical. Does that mean that you would also take all of Revelation and the OT prophecies about the future kingdom of God on earth as allegorical? If so what rule would you give to differentiate between those prophecies which are to be taken as literal and those which are allegory? Is it just that ones which have been fulfilled are therefore literal and those which are not yet fulfilled are now just an allegory?

Is there any precendence for an old Testament prophecy that we can see has now been fulfilled in not a literal way, but shows us it was an allegory. I think this would give some weight to your position.

Thanks for your forebearance.


_________________
Dave

 2009/12/26 12:25Profile





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