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 Re: End-Time View

Quote:
If the two witnesses are not individuals but the church, how on earth would say 500 million people (being conservative) get into Jerusaleam, and then be slaughtered and left on the streets.

It's a natural question, but it doesn't make sense to the spiritual mind, andI don't know the answer, but Heb 12 seems to hold a key.

18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard [i]it[/i] begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow." 21 And so terrifying was the sight [i]that[/i] Moses said, "I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.") 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn [i]who are[/i] registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than [i]that of[/i] Abel. 25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more [i]shall we not escape[/i] if we turn away from Him who [i]speaks[/i] from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven." 27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God [i]is[/i] a consuming fire.


 2009/12/28 22:11
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Murrcolr wrote:

Quote:
If the two witnesses are not individuals but the church, how on earth would say 500 million people (being conservative) get into Jerusaleam, and then be slaughtered and left on the streets.



At the same time, then, how do all these others get involved? Are they all in Jerusalem?

"And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwell on the earth" (Rev. 11.9,10).

...But I think the "city" they are slain in is all over the earth at this time: "Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." And the reason they are slain is because their testimony is a TORMENT to them. It must be, then, a very pure and piercing Light.

And if you link up Rev. 10.11, along with verses 1 and 2 of Chapter 11... if you link these verses up with verse 3 of Chapter 11 (which I do), it's this prophetic testimony that measures the "temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein." And it isn't all that well appreciated. They are "clothed in sackcloth." Meaning, they are calling to repentance with a very convicting testimony. And it isn't appreciated.

And what temple are they measuring? Some earthly temple made of stone? Does God care about wood and stone? Does He care about earthly dimensions? No, it's a spiritual temple they are measuring (1 Pt. 2.5). And what altar are they measuring? The one so frequently seen in our day that does not measure up to the altar of the Cross. "And them that worship therein..." They are measured and found short of God's One Standard of Holy Worship: His Son Jesus Christ, and His Cross.

...This all reminds me of Elijah, when he "repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down" (1 Ki. 18.30).



_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/12/28 22:13Profile









 Re:





Dear Alive-to-God, A-Disciple, Deepthinker, et al:

I can see that this thread is going nowhere. The reason is perhaps that some of the posters here, that post on the subject of Scripture and Doctrine are either Catholic believers, or prior believers in Roman Catholocism. As such, the Book of Revelation is taboo, nothing more than allegory or something mystical and non-believable.

[b]However, Jesus Christ was very serious about the importance of this Book, and His soon return to this earth, his Second Coming. He still has promises to keep to the Jewish people- the 1,000 year “Millenial” reign of Messiah, Jesus Christ, upon this earth. He has also promised the final judgment (that not only judges fallen man, but also Satan and His Demons, and His false Prophet, the Pope), as well as the creation of a New Heaven and a New Earth.[/b]

The Second Coming - What is it?

The Second Coming is when Jesus Christ will return to earth in fulfillment of His promises and to fulfill the prophecies made about Him. Jesus Himself promised, "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). Revelation 19:11-12 proclaims this about the Second Coming, "I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself."

Those who witnessed Christ's ascension into heaven after his death and resurrection heard the angels declare in Acts 1:11, "Men of Galilee…why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." The Second Coming is the literal return of Jesus Christ to earth as King in power and glory to rule for a thousand years (Revelation 20:1-6).

He has promised many things in His last Book, the Book of Revelation. [b]He has also made it crystal clear that there are curses placed upon those who discount this book, who add to the prophecies of the Book, or take away the Prophecies of the Book., or to change it:

Those that read this Book, and keep the things written therein (remembers, and thinks about, and ponders what is written in the Book of Revelation) will receive a blessing:[/b]

Revelation 1:
1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2. Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. [b] 3. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.[/b]

Rev 19:10-[b]FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY. The purpose of prophecy is to testify of Jesus and glorify Him. "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

The Old Testament often foretold of the first coming of Jesus. To our generation, prophecy tells of the second coming of Jesus. [/b]

Rev 22:6-AND HE SAID UNTO ME, THESE SAYINGS ARE FAITHFUL AND TRUE: AND THE LORD GOD OF THE HOLY PROPHETS SENT HIS ANGEL TO SHOW UNTO HIS SERVANTS THE THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY BE DONE (or happen soon, or take place). God's Word is perfect and true. What He said will certainly come to pass and can be trusted.[b] The Revelation is shown to "His servants," to those that are taught by the Spirit. The importance of these things being taught is so great, God sent His angel to show them. God’s wants His people to know and understand what must take place soon as related in the Scriptures and specifically in the Revelation.[/b]

Rev 22:7-BEHOLD, I COME QUICKLY: [b]BLESSED IS HE THAT KEEPETH THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK. A person can be hindered from keeping the sayings of the Revelation if his church will not teach it.[/b]

Rev 22:10-AND HE SAITH UNTO ME,[b] SEAL NOT THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND. The Revelation is not a sealed book. It was given to John to be understood; however, the understanding is reserved for "His servants." Correct understanding of much of the Revelation is hidden from those that are not His servants. The Revelation contains prophecy; it covers the past, present, and future. The fulfillment of these prophecies is now at hand. Therefore, the meaning of the book is not withheld from the saints.[/b]

Rev 22:16-I JESUS HAVE SENT MINE ANGEL TO TESTIFY UNTO YOU THESE THINGS IN THE CHURCHES. [b]Jesus sent His angel to testify unto John the Revelation so that it would be taught in the seven churches.[/b] We are all in one of the seven (7) Churches today.[b][u] Does your Church teach the entire book of Revelation?[/u][/b]

Rev 22:18,19-[b] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. A grave warning is given; it might be called a warning of doom. There are people in this generation that have committed this sin. There are those that have rewritten the Bible and even left out this verse. God's warning is, do not tamper with the prophecy of this book (the Revelation)![/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/12/28 22:28









 Re:

Quote:
I can see that this thread is going nowhere.

Oh contraire, I've learned a lot. Our sparring has increased my understanding of this topic. AlivetoGod and Adisciple have produced some very thought provoking ideas.

What your discouraged about is that no one is saying, "oh I see that now, Oh thank you Walter for that wonderful illumination of the scriptures".

The reason why I am not is because it's the old way of how I used to think and I simply cannot return to that way of thinking.

 2009/12/28 22:55









 Re: End-Time View



Hi Walter,

I knew you'd be frustrated by my reply, but you wanted scripture. I hope you will eat the scrolls I've posted.

And maybe even answer some of the obvious questions, like whether you believe in the Holy Spirit or not, to give understanding, gifts and the power of God to believers?

When trying to persuade us to believe Elijah must come back in person, how do you deal with the fact that John had to be strengthened by a touch and a word from the Lord, because His appearance was overwhelming the man?

Rev 1
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands [One] like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair [were] white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet [were] like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance [was] like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead.


This doesn't sound like a description of the Man who had such a common appearance that the religious leaders couldn't recognise Him without help. Either they weren't in the Temple often enough, or, he really was ordinary looking. But we mustn't forget He was the second Adam, and Adam had once upon a time, been 'light' as a son of God (until the Fall), and now, Christ is 'Light' and we are children of light. (Rom 8:19)

 2009/12/28 22:59









 Re: My Way




To Deeptinker, Alive-to-God, ADisciple, et al:

As I have been praying and thinking about our two positions, I go back to the example of Cain & Abel.

Adam and Eve received the example of the sacrifice that was required by God to cover their sin- a blood sacrifice from a first born, unblemished lamb.

Adam and Eve shared the requirements with their two boys, Cain & Abel.

Abel believed God, and provided the sacrifice that was demanded by his Creator. He was rewarded because God sent down fire from heaven to burn the sacrifice.

Cain did not believe God, but instead, did it "his way" (remember the song by Sinatra) and placed the work from his own hands on the altar. What was God's response to Cain? REJECTION. The blood line of the Messiah goes through Seth. Cain's bloodline does not, and goes nowhere.

God will spit those out of His mouth who reject Him and His authority.

God's Word is indeed His Word. There are always those who want to change it. Those that want to "spiritualize" it. Those that truly have been deceived into believing that the Holy Spirit that lives within them gives them the authority to "spiritualize" or allegorize His Word. The Holy Spirit "quickens" (makes alive) the Word of God for the believer. Satan still has access to the minds of the believer, just like he had access to the mind of Christ in the wilderness. Those that will not accept His Word the way it is written are listening to satan, not the Holy Spirit, and are on their way to Hell.

Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/12/29 15:13









 Re:

Quote:
Those that will not accept His Word the way it is written are listening to Satan, not the Holy Spirit, and are on their way to Hell.

That is quite a bold statement Brother.

Alright, lets obey the LORD's word as they are literally written.

Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Now, don't reply to this trying to give an interpretation. Don't say, "The LORD means this or means that". If you do, then you'll be allegorizing and spiritualizing. You said, and I quote:

"Those that will not accept His Word THE WAY IT IS WRITTEN are listening to Satan".





 2009/12/29 15:55









 Re:





To Deepthinker:

Wow, it is apparent that you and Barack Obama have the same ideas about Scripture. Do you attend the Church formerly pastored by Reverend Wright?

[b]On June 24th 2008 your Spiritual double, Barack Obama, said the following:

"Which passages of scripture should guide our public policy?" Obama asked in the speech. "Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is OK and that eating shellfish is an abomination? Or we could go with Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount?

"So before we get carried away, let's read our Bible now," Obama said, to cheers. "Folks haven't been reading their Bible." [/b]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Brother (if you are my brother), you need to be on your face, in repentance, asking God to forgive you.

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:
[b]
Those that will not accept His Word the way it is written are listening to Satan, not the Holy Spirit, and are on their way to Hell.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is quite a bold statement Brother.

Alright, lets obey the LORD's word as they are literally written.

Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Now, don't reply to this trying to give an interpretation. Don't say, "The LORD means this or means that". If you do, then you'll be allegorizing and spiritualizing. You said, and I quote:

"Those that will not accept His Word THE WAY IT IS WRITTEN are listening to Satan".

[/b]


 2009/12/29 17:13









 Re:


I am going to take a cue from the site owner. This is what's at the bottom each time we hit submit when we post.

Quote:
The site moderators ask you before you post that you consider praying and ask the Lord if you have the right spirit to serve others in the body of Christ before posting and pressing the submit button. Please also look at these scriptures: Matthew 12:36, James 1:26, Colossians 4:6.

I have considered it and I am ceasing replies to you Walter.

Thank you

 2009/12/29 17:43
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3403
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Cain vs Abel or Rev Wright vs Waltern

Quote:
Waltern wrote:
As I have been praying and thinking about our two positions, I go back to the example of Cain & Abel. ... What was God's response to Cain? REJECTION.


Waltern,

Why are all your responses so dividing? Please correct me if I’m wrong about the above quote and post but between the lines are you actually eluding that you are Abel? And all the disagree’ers with you are the Cains?

And then your next thread, they are on Rev. Wright’s side or .. yours. Again, you’re the only one on the side of right.

You do not say the following but this is what seems to come out from between the lines, “You are either for me or against me.” Oh excuse me it’s, “You are either for the word (and my interpretations of it) or you are against the Holy word (and me, of course).”

It seems you USUALLY do what you have done above, DIVIDE and of course, include yourself on the winning side. “Well, isn’t that convenient?”

If I’m wrong and way off base and no one else has noticed this, then I humbly apologize for hurting your feelings.

God bless you Waltern,


_________________
Lisa

 2009/12/29 18:10Profile





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