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 Re:

Quote:
Sometimes I think that perhaps others are just trying to push an agenda

There is no agenda. This is just one thread out of many. If I had an agenda, I would push this right into the ground, but I don't because I don't have an agenda. I am enjoying this thread. I hope it stays in an enjoyable state.

 2009/12/28 21:00









 Re:

Question, if Joshua is that Prophet, what did he prophecy about?

 2009/12/28 21:03
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Brothertom said
Obviously the two witnesses play a prime role in the last day scenario, and I personally think they ARE individuals. The reason is, that the Word is too graphic about their power, and especially their deaths...when their bodies are resurrected in front of all. "COME UP HERE!"; says the Lord....as many watched.



If the two witnesses are not individuals but the church, how on earth would say 500 million people (being conservative) get into Jerusaleam, and then be slaughtered and left on the streets.

Thats without even thinking of the logistics of getting them there in the first place?

The two witnesses are individuals.......


_________________
Colin Murray

 2009/12/28 21:06Profile









 Re:




To deepthinker:

Still having trouble with that one, are we?

Well, lets try it again--lets see what the Prophesies are of the coming Messiah in the Old Testament, and compare them to their fulfillment in the New Testament. [color=990000][b]I will highlight the text we have been referring to in red, just for you:[/color][/b]

Below are some of the many Old Testament prophecies that pointed to the coming Savior and the New Testament verses where Jesus fulfilled every one of the prophecies.


To be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2
Fulfilled Matt. 2:1-6, Luke 2:1-20

To be from the line of David Isaiah 9:6-7
Fulfilled Matthew 1:6-16

To be born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14
Fufilled Matt. 1:18-25, Luke 1:26-38

[color=990000][b]
To be a prophet like Moses Deut. 18:15-19
Fulfilled John 1:45; John 7:40[/color][/b]

When he would come Daniel 9:24-27
Fulfilled Matthew 1,2 ; Luke 1,2

Would come out of Egypt Hosea 11:1
Fulfilled Matthew 2:14-15

Would live in Capernium Isaiah 9:1-2
(land of Zebulun & Napthali)
Fulfilled Matthew 4:15-16

Enters Jerusalem in triumph Zechariah 9:9
Fulfilled Matt. 21:1-9, John 12:12-16

To be rejected by his own people Isaiah 53:1-3, Ps. 118:22
Fulfilled Matt. 26:3-4, John 12:37-43

To be betrayed by a follower Psalm 41:9
Fulfilled Matt. 26:14-16, 47-50 ;

To be tried and condemned Isaiah 53:8
Fulfilled Matt. 27:1-2, Luke 23:1-25

To be silent before his accusers Isaiah 53:7
Fulfilled Matt. 27:12-14,Mark 15:3-4


To be struck and spat on Isaiah 50:6
Fulfilled Matt.26:6,27:30;Mark 14:65

To be mocked and insulted Psalm 22:7-8
Fulfilled Matt. 27:39-44, Luke23:11

To suffer with criminals Isaiah 53:12
Fulfilled Matt. 27:38, Mark 15:27-28

To be given vinegar and gall Psalm 69:21
Fulfilled ` Matt. 27:34, John 19:28-30

To die by crucifixion Psalm 22:14-17
Fuffilled Matt. 27:31, Mark 15:20,25

Others cast lots for his clothes Psalm 22:18
Fulfilled Matt. 27:35, John 19:23-24

His bones were not to be broken Exodus 12:46
Fulfilled John 19:31-36

To die as a sacrifice for sin Isaiah 53:5-12
Fuflilled John 1:29,11:49-52,

To be raised from the dead Psalm 16:10
Fulfilled Matt. 28:1-10, Acts 2:22-32

To be at God's right hand Psalm 110:1
Fulfilled Mark 16:19, Luke 24:50-51


[b]Please notice, again, just for you deepthinker, what Acts, chapter 7 has to say. What it says is that Jesus is the one that brought them into the promised land, not Joshua. Joshua is a type of Jesus!! (that is a real difficult one, isn't it?:

44. Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
45. Which also our fathers that came after brought in with[color=990000][b] Jesus[/color][/b] into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
46. Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
47. But Solomon built him an house.[/b]


Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:
[b]
by DeepThinker on 2009/12/28 18:03:43

Question, if Joshua is that Prophet, what did he prophecy about?

[/b]

 2009/12/28 21:16









 Re:

Quote:
Lets look in the Scriptures again, and see exactly what they say. Are they referring to Jesus, or Joshua?

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In Peter's message, he understands that phrase to mean, "shall be destroyed from among the people." Without question, Peter regarded Moses words to be Messianic prophecy.

Well I am glad that we both see Jesus as the fulfillment. You had me worried there for a moment. I had thought you were becoming like me, unorthodox! :o)

 2009/12/28 21:28









 Re:


Please re-read my post, and look for the following:

[b]Please notice, again, just for you deepthinker, what Acts, chapter 7 has to say. What it says is that Jesus is the one that brought them into the promised land, not Joshua. Joshua is a type of Jesus!! (that is a real difficult one, isn't it?:

44. Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
45. Which also our fathers that came after brought in with[b] Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
46. Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
47. But Solomon built him an house.[/b]


Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/12/28 21:30









 Re:

Quote:
Well, lets try it again--lets see what the Prophesies are of the coming Messiah in the Old Testament, and compare them to their fulfillment in the New Testament. I will highlight the text we have been referring to in red, just for you:

What are you talking about Waltern? I didn't ask this question. I was asking about Joshua, like the book of Joshua? What did he prophecy about? I wasn't looking for the fulfillment of our LORD.

 2009/12/28 21:32









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Quote:
Joshua is a type of Jesus!!

That is easy to believe. I was talking about this thread to a friend of mine earlier in the day and I had mentioned to her that Jesus is a type of Joshua, bringing us into the land.

This is Sunday school fodder.

 2009/12/28 21:33









 Re: End-Time View



Okay, Walter,

Here's my response to your last post to me. I shall quote the sentences with which particularly I disagree, and follow them with scripture as to why. I hope not to give much explanation, and let scripture speak for itself.

In particular, if Jesus said something, I accept it. If an apostle said something, I accept it. Any implication that words they gave are not wholly true, I reject.

I hope the above is not a new concept to you?

Quote:
(para 1) [b]one of John the Baptist, and one of Elijah[/b]. This short paper will examine the issues at hand.

John 20:21; Matt 28:18 - 20; Acts 2:22 - 44 note 'Repent' in v 38; Eph 4:11 note 'evangelists' and vv 12 - 18 in the context of Eph 1:22, 23: Eph 2:20 - 22, Eph 3:16 - 21, Eph 4:20 - 24, Eph 5: 14 - 21, and Eph 6:10 - 18; 2 Tim 4:5. Note also the many other references to apostles and teachers, who also presented Christ through preaching.
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It is obvious that the Jews of first century Palestine were expecting Elijah to be raised from the dead and return to the nation of Israel to prepare the hearts of the people to receive their Messiah.

This is a fascinating statement. How could it be 'obvious', when even the disciples who were craning the necks of their hearts to see the Messiah (such as Andrew, Peter and John), having spent three years with Him, still could not compute 'be raised from the dead' when He told them. The most they could manage was to be sorry, when they began to realise He was telling them He would die.

Even on the third day, when He had actually risen, they were not expecting to see Him. Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
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Jesus thought of John as the Elijah of Malachi 4:5 (Matthew 17:13).

So do I, because if God, the Word, said it, it's true.
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the person of Elijah that was promised to come again

But Zachariah doesn't say that Elijah will come 'in person'; but that 'a person' will come em'power'ed by the 'same Spirit' as Elijah had been.
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This does not deny that Elijah Himself will actually come again in his physical presence

Actually, it does. There is nothing in what Jesus said, either, to imply that 'Elijah himself' would reappear as 'a man' on earth with a ministry to fulfil.
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before Jesus returns to [b]the earth to set up His millennial kingdom[/b].

John 8:23; John 18:36; Luke 17:20, 21.
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It can be said, then, that John the Baptist partially fulfilled the prophecies of Malachi.

Only by detracting meaning from other scriptures which exlain more of God's mind on the matter.
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In hermeneutics, this is called the double reference principle.

Here indeed is the mind of man, fully exposed to its own dullness! Of course there are many references to the person of Christ, and an almost unbelievable number of connections from history, as well as prophecy, which help us to 'get' what God is trying to communicate. But, if you examine the subsidiary so-called fulfilments, you will find a common flaw in every one of them, namely, a fallen man.
Quote:
When you read the context of Deuteronomy 18, however, you will see that Moses was speaking of Joshua who was to be the next leader of Israel.

This is quite a stretch, for anyone who knows a prophet today. When did Joshua ever 'prophesy'? (I'm not denying that he faithfully relayed the word of God to the people, (which is a kind of prophetic work)), but he made the kind of mistakes that prophets normally tried to prevent from happening to God's people.

Therefore, I'd be grateful if you could find some of Joshua's prophesies for me?

I believe DeepThinker has already mentioned Peter's reference to 'that Prophet', and I would add Acts 3:23 [b]And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people[/b]. 24 Yea, and [u]all the prophets from Samuel[/u] and those that follow after, [u]as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days[/u]. See Deut 18:19.
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When you look at this verse in the context of Hosea, however, you will see that God was speaking of the Israelite's exodus from Egypt.

(Israelites') Indeed. And as I mentioned in a post to AD, 'my son', singular, referred to the whole of Israel, which now, spiritually, is only 'in Christ'. Exo 4:22, 23; Isa 42:1; Isa 45:4, Isa 49:3 - all singular, all foretelling Christ.
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From the context of Jeremiah 31, however, we know that this prophecy was given by Jeremiah to the Jewish captives in Babylon promising them that their children would once again inhabit the land of Canaan

This is a particularly intersting quote, because Jeremiah received it while he was asleep, followed immediately by its refutation - the exhortation by God, not to weep, because... It is interesting, also, because of the slaughter of the children around the time of Moses' birth, which preceded the exodus, just as the slaughter around the time of Christ's birth, precedes our exodus fron the land of sin, into the land of the promise of eternal life - but which you do not mention as a comparason.

Further, Rachel had only two children, and she died immediately after the second was born. So, 'Rachel weeping for her children', could be more closely associated with Gen 30:1, (Gen 30:22) than her consciously knowing that many of her descendants were being massacred - at whatever point in history.

So, you see - while you are arguing for Elijah to return in person - you are also suggesting that a dead woman was capable of 'weeping for her children', and attirbuting that non-event to a less likely scenario than scriptures offer.

EDIT: I do not mean that it is a 'non-event' for Rachel's daughters to weep for their children, as very many have had cause to do. Rachel weeping for her children is justifiably used by Matthew in connection with the massacre under Herod, and, I would add the massacre of infants under Pharoah, which are, spiritually, greater parallels. In both cases, the Israelites had a God given right to live in peace, whereas the Israelites were in Babylon to be punished, and, when they were finally allowed to return, only a small remnant took up the offer. In that way, those Israelite descendants fully vindicated God in His punishment of them by exile. EDIT end.


It would be more correct to say Rachel was a spiritual 'type', of mothers who would both weep to have children, and weep when they were destroyed. This is the ache in the heart of God, for His disobedient children to return to fellowship with Him, which Paul so often expressed.
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God foresaw John when He inspired Malachi, recognizing that He would fulfill the prophecies in spirit at Jesus' first coming; but He was focusing upon Elijah Himself, knowing that he would fulfill the prophecies at Jesus' second coming.

No. God was focusing on His own abilty to redeem His people by the strength of His own arm. Why? Because He had looked for man, and found none. He was not looking to 'Elijah', but to the power of the Spirit he had sent upon Elijah, which in John's gospel is most clearly expounded, will indwell the believer; which fact Paul re-iterates many times, many ways. (John 14 - 17, Galatians, Romans.)
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Elijah will come back again in his physical body to prepare the way for Jesus' return.

Many repetitions of this statement will not force it into actuality, but the word of God will not fail.
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before [b]the Messiah came to set up His earthly kingdom[/b],

The phrase I have emboldened again, suprises me. Are you a cessationist, Walter? Do you disbelieve what Paul said about our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit, (1 Cor 6:19), and all the references in Ephesians I gave earlier?
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so that the Lord's fury would not rest upon them when He came Himself

Lev 18:24 - 30. Moses prophesied plenty of curses, which did come to pass in generation after generation. I take this reference to 'a curse', as being God's last resort, seeing He had done it once already in Genesis, and since then had used Flood, drought and famine, pestilence, sword and miracle, to destroy those who disobeyed, either individually or as a generation together.

Then, (over 400 years later), we come to Gal 3, Col 2:11 - 13, and the book of Hebrews. 'the Lord's fury' was poured out on Christ on the cross, when He got victory over sin and the power of death. 1 Cor 15:56, Heb 2:14, 15.
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Although the passage in Revelation does not specifically declare Elijah to be one of the two witnesses, many Bible scholars believe he is because the prophecies in Malachi need to be completely fulfilled, and the only place we find in the Bible where it could be describing Elijah coming again is this passage.

Or, you could call it 'thin ice'?
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Another reason for this persuasion is the type of power the witnesses are described as possessing. The Apostle John said that if any man would hurt them "fire proceeds out of their mouth, and devours their enemies" (Revelation 11:5). In Elijah's ministry, he was shown to have the power to call fire down from heaven and devour the enemies of the Lord (2 Kings 1:9-14). Another description said they "have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy" (Revelation 1:6). Of course it was Elijah that prayed it would not rain for three and a half years. As a result the heavens were shut up and it did not rain (James 5:17-18).

It seems you don't hold to the belief that we will do greater things than Christ, who was concerned that two of His disciples did [i][b]not[/i][/b] bring down fire from heaven to destroy. However, there is a promise that God Himself, will devour our enemies: Psa 97:3. According to Psa 97:1, this is a function of 'the Lord reigns', so it is reasonable to expect 'Israel' (His people), to ask Him for their enemies to be dealt with by Him in this way. And, just as Christians pray for rain sometimes, they can also pray for no rain. This is not peculiar to Elijah, any more. Mark 4:39 - 41 is ours, as jimp said.
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Since Elijah's physical body was taken up into heaven, having never seen death (2 Kings 2:9-12), he must come back to earth and die.

How does this tally with Deut 34:5, 6; (and other places in OT scripture where God does a unique thing), and 1 Thess 4:17, Matt 24:40, 41? I mean, could not Elijah have received his glorified body just as we will do one day (perhaps without having died first)? Of course, we have been baptised into Christ's death, but isn't that taken care of with regard to OT servants, by Heb 11:39, 40?
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Elijah would have come again, and he would finally see death so that he might be judged.

So, you don't think that happened when Christ died on the cross as his representative? Josh 3:16.

Even if you don't write the answers to my questions in reply, I hope they will trouble you, as much as they trouble me. Thanks for your patience. It is appreciated.

 2009/12/28 21:37









 Re: End-Time View PS to Walter


A lot seems to have gone on between you and DeepThinker while I was writing my post. The name Joshua and Jesus mean the same. They are in different languages. Jehoshua is another form with the same interpretation.

Actually, [i]all[/i] the OT leaders - patriarchs, priests, prophets, kings - were either like Christ in some measure, or like Satan.

 2009/12/28 21:56





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