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Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

My understanding has always been pre-millenial, pre-tribulation. Maybe God will take all the pre-tribs at the time they expect, and the post-tribs after their long-awaited tribulation. God bless you all, and have a Merry Christmas! :-)

 2009/12/24 10:56Profile
wayneman
Member



Joined: 2009/1/24
Posts: 454
Michigan

 Re:

This thread isn't vitriolic enough and the posts aren't compendious enough. No one has pasted a single encyclopedia article yet. No one has even gotten angry yet.

Oh, wait, waltern just logged in. Dogma Enforcement has arrived!


_________________
Wayne Kraus

 2009/12/24 11:33Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

wayneman: No time for vitriol. Jesus is coming.
Leo: If you are right, cool! If I am right, the grace of God is sufficient. If we are both wrong, we win anyhow. Praise God!

Have a blessed Christmas all. Pray for my safety. I will be in a snow plow all night tonight fighting four to eight anticipated inches of snow and near blizzard conditions.

Travis.


_________________
Travis

 2009/12/24 11:40Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings

I use to obsess about this very topic. I searched and studied wanting to know when?? It use to eat me up inside, I actually got to the point where I would look at every tiny event as a sign that this was it, now all of Revelations was about to unfold. As I look back at that time I realize I was actually pretty miserable,I was always worrying and sadly not very close to Jesus at all.My focus was not on Him as it should have been. Our Lord is so kind and loving though, He brought me through all that, showed me areas in my life and attitudes of my heart that I needed to repent of, and taught me how to rest in His peace. I know Jesus did not come yesterday, but He could come today, tomorrow, or the next day and my desire is to live in Him and be found waiting and ready for my Lord. I think that its a good thing to study and know the Lords heart on these matters but I think it is most important to live our lives daily in submission to His will and walk in His leading.."42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. (Matthew 24:42)

God Bless
Maryjane

 2009/12/24 11:47Profile









 Re: End-Time View


You might wish to call my comments 'debris', but to me, there is a great gulf between what Jesus said 'In the world you shall have tribulation', and, the pre-trib view.

If there is a 'great tribulation', it is more likely to be because of the global village - that there is no-where safe to be a Christian, than that tribulation has suddenly got worse than, for instance, being tortured to death for the Faith. I have no idea how a pre-tribulationist could look a persecuted Christian in the eye, and tell them the tribulation has not yet begun.

I know, that if I'd been beaten regularly for my faith, or had my husband murdered for turning from Islam to Christ so that now me and my children were starving, or been in prison in disgusting conditions and seriously molested again and again, or had my children mocked all the way through school and given lousy marks because they were Christians (so they could never go to university), or had to watch them die of illness or being beaten for Christ, I would think I was experiencing 'tribulation', and I would think that this was 'the world's reaction to my faith in Christ, and I would expect Him to be very real to me during those awful times, knowing that He said 'Be of good cheer. I have overcome the world'.


The other main thing I have trouble with, is the term 'the second coming'. Because Christ already came a second time, when He rose from the dead. And there are so many threes in scripture, each next one offering an increasing revelation of the same truth, that I have a BIG problem with any interpretation which has Christ in person on earth, living with sinners like He did before. I just don't see that happeneing.


As some of you know, I believe the cross is the 'rod of iron', because of where historically, iron fits in Nebuchadnezzar's statue. The Romans took Judea just before Christ was born. The cross is His ruling sceptre and those who have never bowed to it willingly, will be rejected when He returns. However, to those who come to the cross, 'with mercy's mildest grace, He governs all our race' (our race being those who have been born again - the holy 'nation'.) God has been a God of second chances for centuries, but I believe at Christ's return (His third coming), that it will be too late for repentance.


Okay, here's another one. Israel. Why in Exodus 19:5, did God say 'because all the earth is mine'? And, how is that Abraham was to become 'heir of the world' (Rom 4:13), if God does not intend to give His people - the whole believing remnant - the whole world to dwell in at some stage? And ;-) just for the record, I do believe in a new heaven and a new earth, because this appears to agree with what John saw, and, the Old Testament pronouncements that this creation will be folded up and put away, one day.



So, now you see what I meant by 'debris'.

 2009/12/24 11:54









 Re:




To Alive-to-God


Christ HAS told us that we (ALL BELIEVERS) would all have tribulation in this world. However, there is a great difference with the tribulation that the saints have faced since the beginning, and the Great Tribulation that takes place during the last 3 ½ years of the Tribulation when [color=990000][b]God pours out His Wrath on a God rejecting, God hating world. Only non-believers, that have been left behind, will experience God's wrath![/b] The Believers, God's Church, will be in heaven, with their new resurrected bodies like that of Christ, waiting to return with Him in Glory, when He ends it all by the Words from His mouth, as He begins His millenial reign on this earth. All of those that came to belief in Messiah during the tribulation, and have been protected by Christ in the wilderness (probably Petra), will enter into the Millenial reign with bodies of Flesh and blood, and have billions of Children during the 1,000 reign of Jesus Christ upon this earth.[/color]

Trying to figure out what is going on in the Book of Revelation can be frustrating. We can gain a better understanding of Revelation by looking at Jesus' Olivet prophecy recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. This prophecy is rather long, so for reference I've included some of the most important scriptures relative to from the Matthew 24 account of Jesus' words.( For study purposes I suggest reading the full accounts in all three books).

"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass,[color=990000][b] but the end is not yet.[/color][/b] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. . . .

[b]"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: . . . .[u] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.[/u][/b]

"Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. . . .

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. " (Matthew 24:1-9, 15-16, 21-22, 26-27, 29-31)

[color=990000][b]In the Olivet prophecy Jesus provides us with a basic outline of the events leading up to His second coming.[u] In Matthew's account Jesus speaks of a Great Tribulation which will be like nothing the world has ever seen (Matthew 24:21-22 ). It will be so bad that if God does not intervene, humanity will be destroyed.[/u] After speaking of the Great Tribulation, Jesus warns his disciples about false Christs and false prophets who will seek to mislead them into believing Jesus has already secretly come (Matthew 24:23-26). But Jesus says that when He returns everyone will see Him. He uses the illustration of lightning, which is hard to hide, as everyone can see it (Matthew 24:27-28). Jesus continues, saying that after the Tribulation the sun will darken, the moon will not be as bright and stars will fall from the sky. Then, after all this He will return, with everyone seeing Him. A trumpet blast will also accompany His return (Matthew 24:29-31).[/color][/b]


Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

Alive-to-God wrote:

You might wish to call my comments 'debris', but to me, there is a great gulf between what Jesus said 'In the world you shall have tribulation', and, the pre-trib view.

If there is a 'great tribulation', it is more likely to be because of the global village - that there is no-where safe to be a Christian, than that tribulation has suddenly got worse than, for instance, being tortured to death for the Faith. I have no idea how a pre-tribulationist could look a persecuted Christian in the eye, and tell them the tribulation has not yet begun.

I know, that if I'd been beaten regularly for my faith, or had my husband murdered for turning from Islam to Christ so that now me and my children were starving, or been in prison in disgusting conditions and seriously molested again and again, or had my children mocked all the way through school and given lousy marks because they were Christians (so they could never go to university), or had to watch them die of illness or being beaten for Christ, I would think I was experiencing 'tribulation', and I would think that this was 'the world's reaction to my faith in Christ, and I would expect Him to be very real to me during those awful times, knowing that He said 'Be of good cheer. I have overcome the world'.


DELETED

So, now you see what I meant by 'debris'.

 2009/12/24 12:28









 Re: End-Time View

Hi waltern,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my 'debris' post. I notice you didn't address most of my stumbling blocks, and, you think Christ is planning to come twice more, not once. I must say, I don't 'see' that in scripture.

Moving on:

Quote:
when He ends it all by the Words from His mouth

I have heard that this word for sword specifically does not refer to His word. Why do you think it does? (And I'm not sure which reference you're using for it.)

Quote:
and have billions of Children during the 1,000 reign of Jesus Christ upon this earth.

Now, you've just explained that Christ is going to catch up believers before He returns the fourth time, so how can people with resurrection bodies have babies? (Matt 22:30)


I didn't mention before, but I don't know why people think the 'great tribulation' lasts only seven years, and that we can be sure something happens exactly in the middle of it. And who is going to decide it has begun? Who is going to announce it? What are the marks of its beginning, that we may know when the middle is?


 2009/12/24 20:10









 Re:

Quote:
2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

YES. But your looking at this verse as it was written a few years ago as if to mean our time. The resurrection had not yet occurred, but it was coming but it wasn't past as Hymenaeus and Philetus had said to which Paul had to write and correct that error.

I find that the majority of believers do not want to investigate audience relevant information but they rather continue believing in the errors that the church has been chewing on for the last 100 years. There is a tremendous amount of prophecies that are fulfilled that people are still trying to put into our future and they will never come to pass...never.

None of the prophets spoke extensively about the resurrection until the New Testament rolled around. Even Martha knew something about the resurrection. She said, "I know he will rise again at the last day". John 11:24 She knew about this last day. And Paul spoke TO HIS AUDIENCE in those times as the days they were living in that something was about to take place. Hebrews 1:2, (last days) 1Peter 1:20 (these last times), 1John 2:18 (last time) 1Peter 1:5 something was going to happen in their day.

For example, Acts 2:17, When we read that, no one gets it. The majority of believers put that prophecy still in the future and yet Peter was drawing from Joel's prophecy showing that this very thing was happening and he referred to HIS (peter's) day as being "the last days".

But no one wants to hear that. There is much dynamite in that bomb my friend, because if it should ever explode the bible will become a different book because all the errors that we have once believed about the Thousands years, the gap theory, and the Pre Mid and Post Tribulation Rapture teachings will all fall away like dust to the wind. I can't find any where the things that I used to believe concerning a Pre and Post Trib Rapture. You will not find a seven year peace treaty with Israel in the bible. That is the basis of the seven year tribulations doctrines.

And know one wants to find out if the bible is right.

 2009/12/24 21:26









 Re:

Quote:
and the Great Tribulation that takes place during the last 3 ½ years of the Tribulation

Where is the Seven Years of Great Tribulation to which 3 1/2 years are Wrath? Just because Jesus said that there would be Great Tribulation doesn't mean that it's seven years. He was saying that the time in which Jerusalem would receive it's judgments it would be Great. There is no mention of 3 1/2 years or seven for that matter.

 2009/12/24 21:33









 Re:

Quote:
No way Deepthinker, I knew there was something funny about you :) Can I ask you when you came to your preterist position?.......brother Frank

About 10 years ago. I was seeking the face of God with prayer and fasting and one verse was presented to me that changed the whole outlook on bible prophecy. I will share it here and you can decide what to believe. But for the sake of our readers I will present the whole part in it's context.

Quote:
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

I will separate the last verse as this is one that has changed my mind concerning bible prophecy.
Quote:
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now the majority of believers take this as an Anti Christ making a peace treaty with Israel. It's actually Jesus Christ CONFIRMING THE COVENANT that was made to Abraham. In the midst of that final week, the 70th week to which Christ would come Jesus would make an end of sacrifices and the oblation would cease. And for the overspreading of abominations, that is the Jews having not recognized the LORD's sacrifice will continue on sacrificing animals to which now have become an abomination in the sight of God see Isaiah 66:3. Christ would come back USING THE ROMAN ARMY to destroy Jerusalem because Vengeance is mine saith the LORD I will repay. (see how God employs this worlds armies for Him Ezekiel 29:18, Ezekiel 29:19 Ezekiel 29:20 see Matthew 23:34,35,36 (notice in verse 36 Jesus says YOU to the pharisees, not another generation far off into the future). Until the consummation, this is the end of the 70th week. The Angel speaks later on to Daniel concerning the end in which he would rise again. And that determined shall be poured on the desolate. see Ezekiel 5 This chapter speaks about the Great Tribulation to which Jesus was referring to in the first century when Jerusalem was under siege, and what God would do to the Jews that survived and to this day the sword that God sent out after them is still there.

I'll let those verses soak in.

 2009/12/24 22:03





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