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KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

I believe what Art Katz does about the end-times. Pre-mil, post-trib, the Jews going through a second holocaust, the near destruction of the modern state of Israel, the church coming to maturity and provoking the same Jews who have been exiled throughout the nations unto salvation.


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Jimmy H

 2009/12/23 18:09Profile
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

I am still really considering a lot of the things Art Katz said...it is a lot to chew on and digest, and certainly not a common belief, I cannot help thinking though, that his views dramatically seem to reflect the consistent nature and heart of God in so many ways. I am excited about the next book that Burning Bush is going to release in a few weeks about this exact topic.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2009/12/23 21:17Profile









 Re: End-Time View

Eschatology has always highly interested me, especially since it's one of the things that the Lord used powerfully to instill the fear of God in me and draw me to Christ for salvation.

I believe in Historic Premillenialism. It's historic because it traces back all the way through church history to the Apostolic church. It's Premillenial because it says that Jesus Christ will return literally and physically before the literal Millennium. The rapture, the first resurrection, and the Second Coming happen at the same time (after the final tribulation). The restoration of God's chosen nation, Israel, is on the horizon in this view, as they cry out for salvation toward the end of the tribulation, believe in Christ, and see Him come in the clouds to rescue them in the nick of time before they're all exterminated.

A good website promoting this position was put together by brother Eli (who sometimes posts on these forums). You can find it here: http://www.olivetdiscourse.com/ -There are also some good articles from recognized men in church history.

A very good explanation of different end-time viewpoints, along with a good case for Premillennialism, can be found in Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, for those interested. Grudem presents the main schools of thought along with their reasoning from the Scriptures, but then explains why he believes Historic Premillennialism to be correct.

I believe this is similar to (or identical to) the view Art Katz held.

 2009/12/23 23:24
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

I would like to suggest to all of us that the Lord Jesus is very likely-- almost certainly, I would say-- going to appear in a way that we are not expecting... and which has the potential to be a stumblingblock to those who have pretty much made up their minds they know His itinerary.

It's better to seek very earnestly to simply be abiding in Him, now. That vantage point, and that alone alone, when He appears, shall enable us to see and understand clearly and not be put to shame.

"And NOW, little children abide in Him, that when He shall appear, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming" (1 Jn. 2.28).


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Allan Halton

 2009/12/24 0:03Profile









 Re:

No way Deepthinker, I knew there was something funny about you :) Can I ask you when you came to your preterist position?.......brother Frank

 2009/12/24 0:19
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Hi Deepthinker,

I won't fall out with you over this. Your bomb has no dynamite! ;-)

Quote:
There was a resurrection of the saints that occurred AFTER Christ rose from the grave (at what point is uncertain). I believe in a "catching away", but not how the mainstream portrays it. However, I am like Greg, I won't dis-fellowship with anyone on this issue.

I know we've crossed this issue before so I won't say any more than what I was reading last night.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


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Dave

 2009/12/24 5:09Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Hi ADisciple,

Quote:
I would like to suggest to all of us that the Lord Jesus is very likely-- almost certainly, I would say-- going to appear in a way that we are not expecting... and which has the potential to be a stumblingblock to those who have pretty much made up their minds they know His itinerary.

I agree that we don't know all the detail and that there is a danger in being dogmatic about the exact sequence of events, however......

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.
5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

As believers if we are walking in the light and awake we should NOT be surprised!

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It won't be something quiet like the first coming.

Every Blessing. Have a good Christmas!


_________________
Dave

 2009/12/24 5:34Profile
davym
Member



Joined: 2007/5/22
Posts: 319


 Re:

It's very interesting to hear different views on this.

Whatever view, it'll be wonderful when the Lord returns, whenever that may be.

I'm pre-trib, pre-millenial myself. Granted there is very little Scripture to support a pre-trib position. However one thing that I often ponder is that the tribulation period is a period of judgement. As Christians (truly born again believers) we have been judged at Calvary so it makes no sense to judge us again.

This is just a thought and I'm sure many of you will see error here.

Merry Christmas everybody.

David


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David

 2009/12/24 5:54Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2003
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: End-Time View

I will have to fall on the side of,,,

No special secret pre-trib rapture
A resurrection of the saints and catching away sometime toward the middle or latter half of the tribulation.
I think the preterist view is rather odd scripturally, but it doesn't cause me to stop loving and respecting my brother. Just can't reconcile his view.

As I heard someone say, it seems as though the prophetic books are beginning more and more to read like yesterday's newspaper. One thing I do believe, it is time to look up, for my redemption draweth nigh.

Heard an interesting quote attributed to Benjamin Netanyahu when speaking with someone who was talking to him about Jesus being the Messiah, which he, as a Jew, does not believe. He said, "I am not sure about that, but when the Messiah does come I will ask Him, sir, have you visited our country before?" I guess when Jesus does return we will all be 100% sure about our eschatology.

Travis. :-)


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Travis

 2009/12/24 8:19Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

Heydave wrote:
I agree that we don't know all the detail and that there is a danger in being dogmatic about the exact sequence of events, however......

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.
5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

As believers if we are walking in the light and awake we should NOT be surprised!

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It won't be something quiet like the first coming.

Every Blessing. Have a good Christmas!



Hi Dave,
It wasn't so much the sequence of events as the Way He shall appear that I had in mind as being something unexpected... and which His own would find difficult to grasp.

Even the first time He appeared it was necessary that a man be sent before Him to prepare the people. There was a well established theology back then as to how the Messiah was supposed to appear. He didn't appear that way. Those who received John the Baptist's ministry were ready for Him, and received Him in His appearing. Those who did not... crucified Him.

And so in our day, we deeply need this preparing ministry similiar to John the Baptist... to prepare the way of the Lord. I notice the tense in Matthew 17.11. "Elias truly SHALL come first, and restore all things." Then He went on to say that yes, Elijah had come already, preceding His first appearing. John the Baptist.

But "Elijah" is yet to come prior to His second appearing, prior to "the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" (Mal.4.5).

I want to have the kind of heart that is teachable, and open to receive, if and when some God-sent ministry in the spirit of "Elijah" comes along and begins to wash the eyes of my understanding, washing misconceptions away.

...I believe the passage you quoted from Thessalonians is very pertinent.

...A very blessed Christmas to you, too, Dave... and to all of you!


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Allan Halton

 2009/12/24 10:46Profile





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