Not trying to be provocative but this is surely speculation at best and unnecessary in the least.
allow me to pose a question, would I be right in assuming that you believe that this war in Iraq is just?
Thats the common denominator of every believer who has told me I was wrong, wrong-headed, speculative, or unnecessary about reading the Columbia disaster as divine rebuke.
If you believe our adventure in Iraq is "just", then you are right, the Columbia disaster was just an accident. God wasn't in it. God would never judge America. America is a perfectly righteous country.
| 2004/10/4 18:20|
thank you for that post. In these churches, sometimes I feel very alone. I'm gonna say what the Lord leads to me say, but it's nice to know that there are others who feel similar. I was smiling when I read what you wrote about our brethern listening to Pastor Ravenhill, and then not walking the walk. I remember what he said about hearing various guys bragging about having dinner at the white house, and then he said, (I parapharse) "can you imagine Jesus bragging about dining with Pontius Pilate, or John the Baptist doing lunch with Herod".
Everytime I read the 2nd chapter of Joel, I think of Leonard Ravenhill, "weeping between the porch and the altar", placing the onus of revival back onto the pulpit away from the pew. Great stuff.
I was praying about how I would handle FOR REAL presecution. No joke, thrown in a hole, back ripped open persecution.
God is so good ,that He can comfort us NO MATTER WHAT!
In Jesus' love, Neil
| 2004/10/4 18:59|
Santa Clara, CA
Brother Mike,allow me to pose a question, would I be right in assuming that you believe that this war in Iraq is just?
What my opinion is of whether or not the war in Iraq is just or not has nothing to do with making a dangerous statement like that. For one, how can you back it up?
Doesn't this just lend itself to all kinds of pronouncements? What about the tragedy in Russia recently? Or Sudan? Or the Hurricanes?...
Are all these judgements?
[i]There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way?
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem?
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."[/i] Luk 13:1-5
| 2004/10/4 22:16||Profile|
| a non answer as an answer|
Your non-answer is an answer. Forgive the assumption, but there is no way, as a Spirit-filled, born-again, Bible believing Christian, that you can say that this war is just. Because this war was borne on a bed of lies, and you are not going to give cover to wickedness and lies in high places. If we see it, we call it. Be like Bonhoffer.
How can I "back it up"?
The same Spirit that pulls me to my knees, the same Spirit that pulls tears of repentance out of me, the same Spirit that allows me to lay hands on the sick, that morning, had me weeping in agony over what I saw on that TV screen, that early Saturday morning. The Holy Spirit told me, this is judgement and I understand what it meant in Scripture when men were compelled to tear their clothes, because I want to tear mine. (with these half cotton/half poly t-shirts, its hard)
I didnt think that was divine judgement because I had some political agenda to work out. The Spirit told me, and I wanted to tear my clothes because I knew what this meant, and I really don't care if anyone sees it as I see it, because when it's all said and done, its just Jesus and me. I wanted to weep, because it wasn't supposed to turn out like this. I love my country, and have served it in the past, but we grow wicked. Greed and pollution, selfishness and murder fill this land from coast to coast, from the highest in the land to the lowest pedophile priest. The people drive huge gas guzzler's and turn on airconditioners that suck up precious resources, while the rest of the world watches in dismay. We are the worlds greatest arms dealers, selling death systems far and above any other nation. We murder our unborn and quibble about the ways to legislate it. While the "church" gives spiritual cover to a leader who doesnt have the courage and the backbone to help bury the dead heroes of this nation.
sickness and pox upon the land.
its no wonder you wont answer my question.
and what I said wasnt dangerous, its truth. How do I know that?
has this war been successful?
have the conditions of victory been spelled out to the people?
no on both counts.
meanwhile the bride of Christ in this country continues to be seduced.
Brother Mike, I was saved three years ago, before that I was right-wing republican , to the core. Jesus delivered me, because upon salvation I read
the New Testament, and He told me, "follow me".
So I have.
I will not wrap myself in any flag, and my real citizenship is in a much different Place.
Glory be to God.
| 2004/10/5 0:32|
| Re: a non answer as an answer|
I have awaken in the middle of the night now and my heart is very heavy about this subject. Brothers and sisters, please pray about this subject. please allow the Lord to reveal the truth to us and do not follow the ways or teachings of men. the Lord is gracious and slow to anger but He does warn. i think Bro. Wilkerson would be the first to agree that all these things are warnings and time is running out. America is much worse than sodom and gomorrah and it is stinking rotten as it sits here in smug pride saying we are 'the best'. once again I am reminded of Ezekiel 16. The Lord has made it clear to me as well as david Wilkerson and many other people who grieve for the sins of this country that we are, as a country, idolatrous, adulterous, rich- thinking we have need of nothing. we are sitting here in our righteous religion as a nation who is supposed to be Christian- and we are a foul thing in the sight of our Lord. it is the religious, the church which stinks to high heaven- not just the wordly , the sinners. it's the church. His own people.
oh, when will we see past the kingdoms of this world. when will we look with spiritual eyes at the condition of america. look at the disgust of the rich and prideful church- of which Bush is a part of. I am homesick for God. i want so badly for him to just come down reveal all that is not of Him so that no one can be blinded any more. so that the enemie's schemes may be revealed.
think, think. who would be the antichrist (if there is one man who is the antichrist) will he come as a liberal democrat who is all for abortion and homosexuality and the obvious crimes? of course not- that would be way too obvious. everyone expects that. remember it will decieve even the elect. just as most of christendom is deceived about the rapture of the church and the narrow road to salvation- which both allow the church to go on sleeping in comfort. I am not saying that Bush is the antichrist but what he represents just may be.
Oh, I have never felt so strong in my spirit about getting this point across to people. i don't care if people think I am nuts. this is one area that the Lord has shown me warning after warning that we must be AWAKE. we must not follow the crowd here. who do you think will be persecuted when the time comes? those who appose the normal way of christianity, the kind that crosses over, the Schuller type church, the govt ok'd christianity.
oh, I have no words that I can say to get this all across. only anguish. brothers and sisters please pray that we know the truth. in our homes and our hearts we must be prepared, we must prepare our children to walk the narrow road against all whatever may come against this narrow path of faith we follow. we must teach them the difference between this worlds accepted view of christianity and true christianity - the kind that brings persecution.
I have walked the road of conservative republican "christian"s in this country. i walked it and was an idolater, an adulterer all the while. when the Lord required meto surrender over everything to Him, along went my citizenship and my allegiance to anything but Him. as I gave up those rights, He just ripped off the blinders on my eyes to those things which are not of Him. we have to be willing to give up the right to be right. to let go of what we have held dear for so long.
Though I always preach love- and you all know me, I cannot and must not be quiet about this. if I go to my grave, I will still be warning about the dangers of the govt and the christianity that it cloaks itself in. it is a cover up. there is a reason for it all and it is to deceive. and it is working. why would all the lukewarm church be going along with it if it wasnt working?
we must choose now who we will serve; God's ways or man's. if we don't choose now, then when it is time to choose, it maybe too late.
Oh, Lord let your kingdom come, let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. I cannot wait until the day that He returns so that all that is hidden in darkness will be exposed. so that all that is not of Him will not stand. Oh, Jesus come and lead us in Your ways of humbleness. reveal your truth to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. All we want is for you to be glorified. devastate us until we are clinging to you for dear life.
In Him, Chanin
| 2004/10/5 2:40||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: a non answer as an answer|
Sorry, you are still wrong.
Your non-answer is an answer. Forgive the assumption, but there is no way, as a Spirit-filled, born-again, Bible believing Christian, that you can say that this war is just.
Willing to forgive the assumption but what you did and are doing is setting up a straw-man to knock back down again.
I purposefully ignored the question earlier because I could see where you were going with this and I might add you never answered my question in regards to whether you would be willing to repeat this earlier pronouncement of judgment to the the family's of those who suffered in that tragedy.
Another danger is to assume that you have people all figured out because they might bring a consideration before you. I know it's easier to categorize and stick people into neat little boxes than to honestly consider that our own opinions might very well be wrong, mine included. But it is still judging with wrong judgment.
But to clarify and give my own worthless opinion on this war and politics in general...
First off want to redirect something here. This thread is getting off track not only in scope but in topic, will post at the end the intention of this category, that in essence is in prayer. The topic at hand, that of Mr. Kerry's campaign joining ranks with those who wish to promote their homosexual agenda has been lost in the verbiage and similarly your comment [i]"...but there is no way, as a Spirit-filled, born-again, Bible believing Christian, that you can say that this war is just.[/i]" is odd in that for one, no one ever said this, it is an extrapolation of your assumptions and two this in itself is a false statement. Can you really judge someones heart by an opinion?
Have had my fill of all the political rhetoric in times past just as well and frankly see all this wrangling over half-truths, loose facts, bi-partisan, agenda wielding, never ending debates over how 'they' are going to fix the problems...
I don't ascribe to 'party' doctrine or any of the sloganeering, nor to the mindset of what a modern day 'Christian' is 'supposed' to believe about a candidate or a specific position as they might have us all corralled into.
My 'opinion' on whether or not this is a 'just' war? Honestly, I don't know. Nor did I feel compelled to have to give some reasoning as to why I should have to answer that question. It is obvious that there is a lot of questions and lot of problems with the reasoning going in, but I don't think either side has all the facts and as usual in these things both sides are talking past each other without considering honestly all that is entailed. Not going to get bogged down in all this and I am not a moderate or liberal or conservative in the sense of the new definitions of those words.
Were the principles collide with Gods word I am against it and where they agree I am for it.
And a note on our sitting President. He is not a preacher nor is he teaching Christian doctrine so to pass judgment on his walk with the Lord I believe is equally dangerous, whether pro or con.
Let us keep in mind that there is a congress, legislature, Judges and a whole system of government that comes into play.
To pray for our leaders is not a cop-out nor should it be a tag-on to our opinions, it should be an essential if we really want to see any real change in this world that we live in.
We can easily get caught up in emotional issues of the day and forget that this world is built on lies. This coincided with my thoughts this morning: [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3150&post_id=21227&order=1&viewmode=flat&pid=21044&forum=31#21227]Living By The Truth[/url]
Lastly, let us not forget that we are not the only country on this planet, there are leaders in nations of other people even our brethren that frequent this site who need our prayers.
Here is an excerpt of the scope of this forum heading (Intercession and Current Events):
"Praying for and interacting regarding current trends and events, for men in authority and their hearts and influence."
Please consider reading the full posting.
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2113&forum=48&3]GUIDELINE: Praying for current trends and events[/url]
| 2004/10/5 8:17||Profile|
The priestly, first-priority-prayer - 1 Tim 2 - to be engaged in as a fundamental sign of a man born-again and submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ does not consider political positions in terms of being right or wrong, right or left, political correctness or its antipode demonstrated by various candidates aspiring to presidency.
Our sole duty, a duty marked by a Cross large enough to be shunned by most people in our very modern churches, is to pray FOR the leadership for the sake of establishing a setting in which godliness receives recognition.
Our very negligence in interceding FOR the leadership is one of the brightest sign signalling our, the Churchs, unwillingness to become a testimony in a dying world.
If our praying is inspired and directed by party preferences, even by what is good and better from certain human and humanistic perspective, it is not to be heard in Heaven simply because our good is not good enough.
| 2004/10/5 9:14||Profile|
A few things come to mind:
- We must take care that we are obeying God in our attitude/behavior/etc. towards president Bush (and senator Kerry, and the guy that cut us off in traffic, and our pastor, and Saddam Hussein, and the rest of them). Whether we consider him a friend or an enemy, we'd better love him as we love ourselves. That might include giving rebukes that would make John the Baptist raise his eyebrows.
- The question of whether this war is just or based on lies is somewhat moot if one is merely attempting to discern whether president Bush is a 'real' (i.e. "going to heaven") Christian. He's given us plenty more warning signs that are far clearer than the accusations that he's lied about the war. Check out http://www.bushrevealed.com/
Douglas Wilson posted an article 09/11/2004 on this topic, and I think it to be quite worth reading:
Wishing I Could Vote for Bush
There are quite a few reasons, actually. But none of them push me over the line. After eight years of Clinton, it has been comparatively pleasant to have a government staffed with grown-ups. Add to that the fact that Jean-Francois Kerry is, in countless ways, insufferable. N'est pas? Couple this with the fact that Bush is predictable -- he appears to me to be driven by principle, even when I differ with those principles. Bush's approach to the problem of terrorism seems to me to have been admirable in many ways. Some might point to the apparent quagmire in Iraq as a counter-example, but we have to remember that our choice was not between a quagmire in Iraq and no quagmire in Irag. The choice was between American soldiers dying abroad or civilians dying here. I believe we have had three years of freedom from terrorism domestically because of Bush's response.
Another reason for considering support for Bush is that a Republican president brings with him at least the possibility of decent Supreme Court appointees, while a Democratic president provides us with a guarantee of horrendous Supreme Court appointees. This argument is not as compelling as it might be because the Republican record is spotty at best. After twenty years of abortion, Roe v. Wade was upheld by the Supreme Court, and the Court that upheld that grotesque decision was made up of Republican appointees, 7 to 2.
Probably the best argument that Christians have offered for supporting Bush is that we need to learn how to advance our agenda incrementally. We ought not to be sectarian in our politics. We have to be patient. We have to pay our dues. Bush in office provides us with more opportunities for good than Kerry in office does, and so we have to take what we can get. Since it is almost certain that either Bush or Kerry will be the next president, why should Christians not rally behind the one that is least objectionable?
The problem is idolatry. George Bush is not a proposed law, or a referendum. He is man who has a responsibility to worship God through Jesus Christ. And this he does, as a baptized and confessing Christian. He is like Solomon, and is a covenant member. But, also like Solomon, he is doing something else. George Bush, in a disciplined and principled way, has supported and advanced syncretistic idolatry. He was central in that abominable National Cathedral worship service after 9-11. The National Cathedral really has become a National Pantheon. He had the Islamic holy month of Ramadan honored in the White House. He paid religious honor at a Shinto shrine in Japan.
Incrementalism makes good sense when we are talking about proposed legislation. Passing a law that outlaws partial birth abortion is not compromised just because the law does not obtain everything we are after. One step at a time. Laws or bills or measures almost require incrementalism by definition. But men, when they need to repent in fundamental ways, must not do so incrementally.
Take again the example of a reforming king, like Hezekiah or Josiah. They did what they could, and the Scriptures praise them as godly kings, even if they did not succeed in removing all the high places. If there were idolatrous places of worship in Israel, incrementalism in removing them could make good practical sense. But say that the king in question was personally worshipping in all these pagan temples. Incrementalism in backing out of such idolatry is incoherent. Confronted with ten forms of idolatrous worship, a godly king in ancient Israel might not have tackled them all at once. But if he was participating in all ten, repentance would look like simple repentance, and he would walk away from all ten, all at once. He would not detach himself from idolatry incrementally. Nathan the prophet would not have arrived at court to urge him to "taper off."
So the central problem is that our national evangelical leaders who support Bush show no signs of any willingness to confront the central problem here, which is that of syncretistic idolatry. In fact, all the indicators are that our evangelical leaders are complicit in this sin, or have accomodated themselves to it in some fashion. Who is the evangelical leader, who has the president's ear, who has confronted him about this? And a private confrontation doesn't count -- these are high profile public sins, and the confrontation needs to be as public as the sin.
Further, this illustrates that incrementalism is a two-way street. Who is more likely to get politically-involved Christians to participate in idolatrous worship services? Bush or Kerry? Who is more likely to get Christians to timidly occupy their assigned corner in the National Pantheon? Bush or Kerry? Who is more likely to get conservative Christians to go along with some generic "people of faith" approach? Bush or Kerry? Given the zeal with which many Christians support Bush (despite such glaringly obvious problems) I think we already have our answer. Incrementalism doesn't work if you sell your soul along the way.
In conclusion, I readily admit that this is all very easy for me to say. I live in Idaho, which is about as likely to go for Kerry as it is to go for Nadir (no, not a spelling mistake). Further, I am beginning to suspect that Bush will not only win, but that he will win in a blow-out. I am not at all convinced that the election will be a squeaker like last time. But if I lived in a swing state, and if I knew the election was going to be close, the pressure would be on me good, and I confess it. There would be beads of sweat on my forehead. I cannot abide Mr. Kerry, and his running mate, Mr. Happy Bottom, is little better. Couple this with the fact that I really like George Bush. In fact I like him so much that it really distresses me that among our national Christian leaders, there has been no one willing to play the role of a faithful prophet and friend. George Bush is a layman, and he could always excuse himself by pointing to all the evangelical leaders, like Billy Graham, who follow this same approach. Who will tell the president to stop including the idols, and in doing so, make it a fundamental issue? Billy Graham? Jerry Falwell? World magazine? Again, the problem is the Church, and the fact that the position I am arguing is controversial shows that their incrementalism is working far better than ours is.
| 2004/10/5 11:32||Profile|
| Re: Is it Chance, or is it God? ...|
Saints, we can all argue till the cows come home about whether the war in Iraq is just, or unjust, just as we can all be judgmental as to whether President Bush is a man of God or not ... i personally think that President Bush is saved because the Word says that no man can claim Christ as His Savior unless by the power of the Holy Spirit, and i've heard him do so on a couple of occasions ... If you all knew some of the mistakes i've made in my past, and some of the still stupid things i do even at present (having to beg for forgiveness from Christ), you might judge me unsaved too ... But i digress ...
Bottom line is this, we all may speculate about God's will at present, and His will for the future, but if it's past events were talking about i think we can all agree that apparently it was God's will ... So it was God's will that Bush 43 be President, or it would not have happened ... And it's apparent that it's God's will that we're at war in Iraq, for if not we wouldn't be there ... This is something that our Lord said to me a few weeks ago after listening to Daniel, when He caused me to post ...
IS IT OF CHANCE ... OR IS IT OF GOD?
He said to me, "My people see my hand in the history of the past, and in My promise of their future, but they never see me in their present" ...
i suggest that it's a very difficult thing to see just where God is going with His plan in a present situation, and to surmise the future, without His special revelation to someone is more than impossible, but all past transpirations are the will of God ... Some folk say that God has two wills ... One permissive (He lets Things happen) ... And one Sovereign (He makes things happen) ... i've subsequently, after listening to the prophets have come to this conclusion, "Whether He let, or makes things happen, He's sovereign" ... That's the lesson of Daniel to King Nebudchanezzer, and that's the lesson to us ... God is in control of ALL! ... President Bush being in power, and this war in Iraq, even tho we might not understand it, serves God's purpose, or it just simply wouldn't be ...
i personally am voting for President Bush because he at least spouts the name of Jesus, and has dared to tell the press that he confers with God in prayer concerning the things of this nation, and all else, including his reasons for this war, i leave between he and our Lord ... i'm voting for Bush because he seems a lot closer to what i believe as a Christian, than John Kerry, and if i'm wrong, and am questioned by God of my decision when He opens my book, then i can honestly say to Him, "Lord i did what i thought was best as a Christian American voter for the country you placed me in" ...
i can tell you saints that while we're all preoccupied with our discussions, arguements, beliefs and disbeliefs, God's will is being done in us, by us, with us, for us, to us, and in spite of us, whether we agree with His methods, or the people He choses to use, saved and unsaved ... i'm voting for Bush, and if it's the Lord's will he'll be president for four more years ... If Kerry gets in, then that too would be the Lord's will ... All i know is that He lifts up, and He takes down, from the highest, to the least of us ... And no matter who rules America, or any other nation, super power or bananna republic, it's our God manipulating all to His advantage, to the coming and establishment of His kingdom on earth ...
He makes Himself very clear who's in control of the so called "matters of men" in Daniel ... Amen
| 2004/10/5 11:33||Profile|
| Re: Dear Mike|
I will answer your question from prior posts about if I would share my word on the Columbia disaster with the family members of our astronauts lost in this tragedy. No, I wouldn't, because it would not be approriate. To those who mourn, family members, it would be better to hug and love and comfort those who grieve. It would not be an appropriate loving witness to say, "well, your loved ones just died so that God could send divine rebuke to a stiff-necked people".....much the same as neither of us would say to the family of a homosexual who just died of AIDS, "well, your loved one just paid the price of a reprobate lifestyle and now burns eternally in a fiery hell".
Thats not the nurture aspect that Jesus has us to undertake in a grieving environment.
However, on a non-exclusive discussion forum dedicated to issues of the faith we share, I think its a perfectfully legitimate issue to ponder. You disagree with me.....okay. Fair enough.
I used to be an active trader, quite active. Its one of the environments I was raised in, and one of the lessons that hothouse world laid on me was this; when everybody disagrees with you on a position, then you are probably right.
And everybody in the faith professes that God is sovereign, and is in everything. Then to call the Columbia disaster, just an accident, just a freakish accident with a chunk of stryfoam tearing loose and hitting the leading wingtip and ripping a invasive hole, that resulted in the complete immolation of the craft, and to deny that God could be in that.....I don't know how to counter that, but to say okay, we disagree.
My question to you, do you believe this war is just? is perfectfully reasonable, because I want to ascertain if you are another of the President's apologists buried inside the white evangelical church in the United States.
If you believe that this President DID NOT lie or mislead the American public in the lead-up to war, then to you, this war is just, and there is nothing more for us to say.
And this is a perfectfully legitimate issue for us to discuss in the prayer and intercession section, because if you feel as I do, that deceit is a frequent policy CHOICE in the Bush administration, and the President comports himself as a "born-again" believer, he IS A WITNESS, and that is a problem warranting prayer. Because if you and I were in leadership at a church and you and I had a leader who was challenged in the veracity department of his ministry, we'd have to be on our faces before we deign to confront this man, and then confront we WOULD. We would NOT let such a situation continue without voicing active opposition.
But if the church believes that everything regarding the war is hunky-dory, and the President dealt with the public on the level, and truthfully, we have no further need for dialogue.
But I really believe that there are a few, who view this seduction of the Bride of Christ by a cynical secular political party interested only in its accumulation of power and wealth, there are those who view this as the beginning of the birth of the church of the beast.
Praise God! Come Lord Jesus!
You don't have to answer my question. I pray my assumption of the answer is wrong.
May God bless you and your family is my continuing and heartfelt prayer.
| 2004/10/5 20:08|