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imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Quote:
So... which is it? Justification first, or sanctification? You've aligned yourself with both, in your last and second last post.

Sorry. Couldn't resist challenging you...




I guess the short answer is that how God in His omniscience forgives, ie... 'Rev 13:8, Rev 17:8'.
from before, knowing what he will do in the future (Rom 3:25).

You make a good question based on my post, but the bible says it's Christ that saved us with the shedding of his blood at Calvary.

On the other hand, many times in the bible He calls us to turn to Him to be saved. It doesn't change what saves us, just that the order we experience things isn't the order that God legally saves us in.

Make sense?

ps: There's also the point of whether its someone who's backslidden and is coming back to the Lord or whether it's someone hearing the gospel for the first time (diff between Is 55 and some NT verses).

But to say otherwise that Sanctification comes first is nothing other than works salvation.
I think it's more, in answer to your question, a matter of how salvation actually happened (atonement etc) and how God calls us to enter into it (repentance, faith etc).


 2009/12/12 10:28Profile









 Re: Rom 6:1

Quote:
On the other hand

Hi brother,
You can't have it both ways! (;-)) Your reply is no clearer than the two posts on which I commented.

I say, there is an order, and, sanctification (the act of setting oneself apart to God) first is not works. For, if turning to God is works, than no-one can be saved. Methinks this is a theological non-starter.

 2009/12/12 12:02
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:


Alive-to-God wrote:

Quote:
Methinks this is a theological non-starter.




I would agree and go even further and say that the whole Cal/Arm debate is a non-starter.


_________________
Christiaan

 2009/12/12 13:18Profile









 Re:


I give up! 8-)

 2009/12/12 14:50









 Re: Rom 6:1

Miccah wrote:

Quote:
I would agree and go even further and say that the whole Cal/Arm debate is a non-starter.

Ah... I didn't mean to stir that up at all.

In fact, after my last post, I was wondering whether to ask imnowhere to look at the thread on Rom 10:17, for its superbly clear testimonies of God speaking to brethren before they were born again.

Partly my desire here, is to point out that man turning to God - whether for the first, middle or last time - is a response to Him. He loved us first.

In whatever way we respond affirmatively to His drawings or conscious word to us, we are setting ourselves apart to Him by that act of response, and according to the honesty of our response, He declares us justified or not.

1 John 4:19; Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [i]his[/i] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [i]rather[/i] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

How did the first man know he was such a sinner? Because he was looking for God, to God and at God, and finding Him, saw how far short he fell. The other man was looking at himself.

 2009/12/12 15:42
imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Quote:
and according to the honesty of our response, He declares us justified or not.




That's Cal/Arm type thing, and though I enjoy the theological debate, I think it's been hammered through pretty good already.

But to answer, I'm not trying to have it two ways, I'm just acknowledging that there's two parties involved.

God does what He does, and that is saving the lost.

We do what we do, and that is responding to the salvific work of God.

So, though my returning doesn't procure my salvation (Christ dying for me did), I nonetheless have to respond to His call to be saved; not to procure it, but to enter into it.

It's basically a hypothetical question: Could the elect of God be saved if they never believed? The answer is no, not because they never did the 'work' of believing to save themselves, but because those that God saves [b]will come to Him[/b] (John 6:37)


Would someone you share the gospel with ever ask the question asked of Paul in Rom 6:1 based on how you deliver it? It's been a good question to ask oneself I think.

Quote:
How did the first man know he was such a sinner? Because he was looking for God, to God and at God, and finding Him, saw how far short he fell. The other man was looking at himself.



Exactly right. But it is by the grace of God that he was able to see. Without being born again, we can't even see the kingdom of God.


BTW, good dialogue

 2009/12/12 18:07Profile









 Re: Rom 6:1

Yeah, it is good!

Quote:
That's Cal/Arm type thing

Nothing that I'm offering to this discussion, is being written from that perspective. Every time I hear/read that type of discussion, I switch off, because neither party is making sense by then. The further either 'side' veers off the whole counsel of God, the less sense they make.

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But to answer, I'm not trying to have it two ways, I'm just acknowledging that there's two parties involved.

That's not the way it reads to me. You seem to have 'work' firmly in your mind - whereas God is looking for voluntary relationship.

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God does what He does, and that is saving the lost.

But they're not lost by the time He actually saves them.
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We do what we do, and that is responding to the salvific work of God.

Now I'm going to show my utter ignorance: please explain in different words what you mean by 'and that is responding to the salvific work of God'. Thanks.
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So, though my returning doesn't procure my salvation (Christ dying for me did)

Well, your returning wouldn't procure your salvation unless Christ had already died, but, that's not quite what you've written. Christ procured the [i]possibility[/i] of salvation for everyone.
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I nonetheless have to respond to His call to be saved; not to procure it, but to enter into it.

I agree with this statement. :-D
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but because those that God saves will come to Him

Don't you mean 'but because those who come to God, He will save'? That's what your verse (John 6:37) is saying, actually.
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Would someone you share the gospel with ever ask the question asked of Paul in Rom 6:1 based on how you deliver it? It's been a good question to ask oneself I think.

I'm not quite sure what you mean, here, because when Paul asked Rom 6:1, it was rhetorical, and designed in the classical style of debating, to give him a handcarved window of opportunity to unpick the false doctrine going around.
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But it is by the grace of God that he was able to see

True.
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Without being born again, we can't even see the kingdom of God.

As long as you aren't saying he couldn't receive the grace of God until after he was born again. And, as long as you aren't saying he couldn't seek God until after he was born again. And, as long as you aren't saying he couldn't [u]hear[/u] God until after he was born again.


I look forward to your clarifications. :-)

 2009/12/12 19:43
imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Quote:
But they're not lost by the time He actually saves them.



Then He's not really saving them is He? :-)


Quote:
Now I'm going to show my utter ignorance: please explain in different words what you mean by 'and that is responding to the salvific work of God'. Thanks.



Our theology differs. I believe that God saves man through the atonement (not possible but actual. No one whom Christ has paid the sins of will ever be punished the second time for the same sins in hell. As Charles Spurgeon said, this is the worst heresy that has ever crept into the church) and gives him the gift of faith (Phil 1:29) and the gift of repentance (2 Tim 2:25) and brings him (John 6:44) to Himself.

Quote:
Christ procured the possibility of salvation for everyone.



We disagree, but I do understand where you're coming from. I believe when Christ died and took upon himself our transgressions and paid our penalty, that is it, we are justified before God. The only thing remaining is for God to 'draw' (John 6:44, James 2:6 is the same word) us to Himself.


Quote:
Don't you mean 'but because those who come to God, He will save'? That's what your verse (John 6:37) is saying, actually.



A simple look at the structure of the verse shows that it is the giving of the church to Christ that is the effective part, not vise versa (similar to John 10:26, many would say some are not of God's sheep because they don't believe, but Jesus says they don't believe because they are not of His sheep).


Quote:
As long as you aren't saying he couldn't receive the grace of God until after he was born again. And, as long as you aren't saying he couldn't seek God until after he was born again. And, as long as you aren't saying he couldn't hear God until after he was born again.



Sorry, that's what I'm saying. :-)


Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


I don't disagree whatsoever that the points you make re our salvation that we do are absolutely neccessary and must be done to be saved. I just believe that all the things we do are done because of God's work in us (Phil 2:13).

 2009/12/13 0:32Profile









 Re: Rom 6:1

Quote:
But they're not lost by the time He actually saves them.

Then He's not really saving them is He?

You seem to be saying that when your bus gets to the destination and you get off, you didn't know where you were going when you got on.

However, that example has its own problems, because a baby doesn't know what's going on either before or after it's born. It all gradually dawns on its understanding as it grows up. But from the parent's (God's) point of view, nothing is certain until it breathes in the spirit for the first time. Because it [i]could[/i] come to birth but not breathe.

We are not talking about babies though, for the most part, when we are discussing the process of faith and repentance. And I think you are reading far too much preconceived Arminian theology into my posts, because the fact is God cannot save anyone against their will.

That is why those people in the presence of Jesus, by not believing despite the faith that was being created in them everytime He said something, were in a different state of unbelief than those who have never heard His word.

In fact, I'm wondering if this is what the Bible means by 'unbelief'. I haven't studied it enough to be sure, though. Certainly, from Paul's writings, the initial state of never having heard God speak, he later describes as 'ignorance' (rather than unbelief). (God doesn't 'wink' at 'unbelief'.)
Quote:
Our theology differs.

So I've come to see.

Jesus said: John 10:34, 35. This is why it is necessary for a man consciously to bow, and give up his little kingdom of flesh, self and sin, by being planted into the death of Christ, in order to receive resurrection life (new birth).

I believe in God's sovereignty very much, but the very fact that God left Adam free to choose to sin, shows that man's free will is patterned on God's free will. (Gen 1:26,27) Except, God hates sin. That's His heartstate. He would never choose to sin, because He [i]loves[/i] purity and truth. But, when it comes to a man wanting only purity and truth in his life, [u]he[/u] has to turn away from everything he has become. No-one, [i]not even God[/i], can turn away [u]for[/u] him.

And that's a choice [u]God[/u] makes, which is a valid part of His 'sovereignty'.
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No one whom Christ has paid the sins of will ever be punished the second time for the same sins in hell.

I've never heard of this 'heresy'. A man has to get into Christ, though, before he will have his sins washed away in His blood.
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Christ procured the possibility of salvation for everyone.

We disagree,

Well, may I publickly praise God that I was evangelised by believers who believed [u]anyone[/u] who came to Him, could be saved?
Quote:
I believe when Christ died and took upon himself our transgressions and paid our penalty, that is it, we are justified before God.

You are taking a great liberty with the death of Christ, by this statement. You don't seem to give any humble reverence to what it was for Him to step up, and take responsibility for every sin which has or will ever occur in history; to have borne the image of fallen man (Gen 5:3, Heb 2:14)(Please check Gen 5:1, 2 for context of 'likeness').

I acknowledge that Christ's atoning work had to come first, but we are justified [u]by faith[/u] in Christ's atoning work. (Rom 5:1) There is not one word in scripture, which implies that Christ did [u]not[/u] die for everyone who will ever live. All those verses about having our names found to have been written in the Lamb's book of life, could (or should?) be read in the light of the verses in the Old Testament, about having one's name blotted out.

He was, after all, the Lamb slain [u]before[/u] the foundation of the world.
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but Jesus says they don't believe because they are not of His sheep

I don't think this means what you think it does. Remember that God was the Shepherd of Israel long before Christ came. His people had been referred to as 'sheep', first by David.
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Sorry, that's what I'm saying.

Then, may I, as a midwife, recommend you take pains to find a book or a person, from which or whom to learn about what goes on in the womb before birth, and what happens at birth, and what happens after birth? Because scripture is clear that the natural is patterned on the pre-existent spiritual, (Heb 8:2, 5) and God was very particular about the process He chose for procreation to occur in natural man. By this, we learn a [u]great deal[/u] about spiritual [i]new[/i] birth. God is not at all sophisticated.
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I just believe that all the things we do are done because of God's work in us

In a way, that is stating the obvious, but at the same time, you give so little credibility to the part man plays in [i]receiving[/i] salvation, that it doesn't come over like you acknowledge the [i]love[/i] relationship between God and man which very many parts of scripture picture.

The Old Testament has a lot to offer, as do the testimonies of believers who've come through a lengthy process [u]with God[/u], before [u]they[/u] were sure they were born again.

 2009/12/14 2:40
imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Quote:
However, that example has its own problems, because a baby doesn't know what's going on either before or after it's born. It all gradually dawns on its understanding as it grows up. But from the parent's (God's) point of view, nothing is certain until it breathes in the spirit for the first time. Because it could come to birth but not breathe.




Analogies usually do fall short somewhere or other. I believe God used the 'born again' analogy' to show many things, one of them being that it was God that brought us into salvation and not us... John 1:13


Quote:
I believe in God's sovereignty very much, but the very fact that God left Adam free to choose to sin, shows that man's free will is patterned on God's free will.



Except for one thing... Man's free will disappeared after he sinned and fell into slavery to sin. Paul would not have quoted Rom 3:10-18 for Adam before the fall, but does for 'all' those afterwards. To say that we compare in freedom exactly to pre-fall Adam is very much to miss one of the most oft expressed doctrines in the bible.


Quote:
Well, may I publickly praise God that I was evangelised by believers who believed anyone who came to Him, could be saved?



I praise God for that too. The difference between our ideas is that I see in Rom 3:11 Paul says, 'no one seeks God' as well as in Rom 10:20 ' I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.'. Now in John 6:37 Jesus says that every single person the Father gives Him 'shall' come to Him (not maybe or hopefully) and he says immediately after that everyone that comes to Him none will be turned away! I believe what your evangelist friend does insomuch that I believe that any that come to Christ can be saved, I just believe Paul and Christ when they say none will come unless the Father draws them.



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You are taking a great liberty with the death of Christ, by this statement.



No, I took it right out of Is 53.



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I don't think this means what you think it does. Remember that God was the Shepherd of Israel long before Christ came. His people had been referred to as 'sheep', first by David.



Your answer means nothing re what the verse says. I don't see what God as a shepherd in the OT has to do with Jesus saying the reason they don't believe is because they aren't of his fold, not vise versa. The verse couldn't be any plainer. There's no plainer way to put it.


Quote:
In a way, that is stating the obvious, but at the same time, you give so little credibility to the part man plays in receiving salvation, that it doesn't come over like you acknowledge the love relationship between God and man which very many parts of scripture picture.




Well, I stated that it's imperative to our salvation, so I can't give it more credibility unless I say it's the source of our salvation. And that would be a great heresy. Christ is the source of my salvation. At the cross he said, 'it's finished', not 'it's started'.

Yes, God won't save us against our will, but rather as David said, 'We are made willing in the day of Him power'.

God softens our hearts. That is what the New Covenant is all about. The 'I wills' of the New Covenant in Jer 31 and Ez 36. God declares he 'will' do these things in our hearts because on our own, we won't.

That is why it is called 'free grace', why it says we are 'freely justified' and why it is called an 'election of grace'.



Those were good thoughts.

 2009/12/14 11:06Profile





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