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imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Quote:
By "lawless Gospel" I meant the false Gospel that says you don't need to forsake your sins to be saved.



Is forsaking your sins what saves you? Or what Christ did on the cross that saves you?

By reading the rest of chpt 6, I see Paul exhorting the church to put sins behind them because of their position in Christ, not to get saved in the first place.

I agree they go together, but there is most definitey an order, and justification comes before sanctification. One is the reason for the other.

Those that confuse this will never hear the response that Paul did.

 2009/12/9 17:40Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
The Gospel that the prophets preached, John the Baptist preached, Jesus Christ preached, the Apostles preached, all included repentance



Soo, the "good news" declared by them all was that man had to forsake his sin in order to be saved?

"7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, [b]preached the gospel[/b] beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith." Galatians 3

You are trying to make the Gospel into a new law. Which none of the people you mentioned ever did!

Here is the Gospel-

"1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of [b]the gospel[/b] I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures..." 1 Corinthians 15


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2009/12/9 18:14Profile









 Re:

John the Baptist preached a "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins". That means that before our penalty is remitted, we must forsake our sins.

The problem with the Antinomian Gospel is that is fails to distinguish between "justification by works of the law" and "repentance for the remission of sins".

Justification by works of the law is trying to earn your salvation by obeying laws. Repentance for the remission of sins is when you give up your sins so that God can pardon you by His grace and mercy.

We are saved by God's mercy upon condition of atonement, repentance, and faith. God will not extend His mercy unless the conditions of atonement, repentance, and faith are first met.

God cannot wisely set aside our penalty (forgiveness) unless there is an atonement (a substitute for penalty) a change of mind about sinning (repentance) and an obedient trust (faith). It would be unsafe for God to simply forgive man. Therefore these conditions must be met first. God cannot simply forgive those who remain in their sins, who continue in their disobedience. Just as God has good reasons for requiring the atonement, and He cannot forgive without an atonement, so also God has good reasons for requiring repentance, and He cannot forgive without man's repentance.

 2009/12/9 20:37
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

The Arminian,

Quote:
God will not extend His mercy unless the conditions of atonement, repentance, and faith are first met. God cannot wisely set aside our penalty (forgiveness) unless there is an atonement (a substitute for penalty) a change of mind about sinning (repentance) and an obedient trust (faith). It would be unsafe for God to simply forgive man. Therefore these conditions must be met first. God cannot simply forgive those who remain in their sins, who continue in their disobedience. Just as God has good reasons for requiring the atonement, and He cannot forgive without an atonement, so also God has good reasons for requiring repentance, and He cannot forgive without man's repentance.


There are so many "God will not"s and "God cannot"s in your post that I cannot help but wonder whether you truly know the mind of God, or you are deceiving yourself that you do.

[i]Isa 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Isa 40:13-14 "Who has understood the mind of the LORD, or instructed him as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?"[/i]

I think you presume too much about your knowledge of God. That is a dangerous thing, and you should carefully consider your ways.

 2009/12/9 22:28Profile









 Re:

Quote:
There are so many "God will not"s and "God cannot"s in your post that I cannot help but wonder whether you truly know the mind of God, or you are deceiving yourself that you do.



Are you saying that the God of the Bible can forgive men without an atonement? The Bible says without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.

Are you saying that God can forgive men without repentance? The Bible says repent for the remission of sins.

God cannot, consistent with His wisdom and goodness, forgive men without repentance and an atonement,

Quote:
Isa 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."



I think you are misunderstanding this verse. In context it is talking about the wicked forsaking his way and the unrighteous man forsaking his thoughts "for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are you ways my ways". In other words, God's ways are not wicked, God's thoughts are not unrighteous. That is what this verse is saying. "Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts... for my thoughts are not your thoughts and your ways ar enot my ways..."

This verse doesn't mean that we can't understand God, or that we can't know His mind, or that we can't see His reasoning. It is to twist the meaning of that verse and take it out of context to use it that way.

 2009/12/10 2:21
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:
I think you are misunderstanding this verse. In context it is talking about the wicked forsaking his way and the unrighteous man forsaking his thoughts "for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are you ways my ways".


There is no misunderstanding here. God is calling the wicked to repent - in particular, he is calling the wicked who think they are capable of thinking and reasoning at the same level as God to repent. An example of such a person would be someone who presumes to know what God will not do, or what God cannot do.
Quote:
This verse doesn't mean that we can't understand God, or that we can't know His mind, or that we can't see His reasoning.


That is exactly what it means - no one can truly understand Gods' thoughts - but there are some prideful people who think they can, and they speak as if they do. Read Job 38:2-39:30 and then tell God that you understand him and that you know his mind.

 2009/12/10 3:16Profile
imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Quote:
Isa 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

I think you are misunderstanding this verse. In context it is talking about the wicked forsaking his way and the unrighteous man forsaking his thoughts "for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are you ways my ways". In other words, God's ways are not wicked, God's thoughts are not unrighteous. That is what this verse is saying. "Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts... for my thoughts are not your thoughts and your ways ar enot my ways..."

This verse doesn't mean that we can't understand God, or that we can't know His mind, or that we can't see His reasoning. It is to twist the meaning of that verse and take it out of context to use it that way.




Actually I believe you're both mistaken.
Look at the context. This is one of the most mis-quoted verses in the bible.

In this passage, God implores the backslider to come back to Him, He says...

Is 55:6 ¶ Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


What God is saying is this: Forsake your wicked ways and return unto me, and I will have mercy and grant you an abundant pardon. WHY? HOW CAN WE KNOW GOD WILL RECEIVE US BACK?

"BECAUSE MY WAYS AREN'T YOUR WAYS..."

Mankind don't naturally lean towards 'free grace'. We aren't like God.

Since seeing this passage in it's correct light, it's become to me one of the most encouraging verses in the bible. God is telling us, "I'm not like you. I'll readily show mercy and an abundant pardon if you only come back."

We aren't nearly as gracious. We want our 'pound of flesh'. Not so with God.


To twist this passage to show God angrily demanding righteousness before taking us to Himself is the most gross error.

God is not like us. His thoughts are not ours. His ways are higher. Much higher.


He will show mercy. He will pardon abundantly.

Paul understood this grace well. That's why he had to answer the question in Romans 6:1.




Jer 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.




 2009/12/10 11:32Profile









 Re: Rom 6:1

Hi imnowhere,

I've joined the thread because in an earlier post you stated emphatically:

Quote:
and justification comes before sanctification

and I thought 'now that's definitely open to discussion!' and carried on reading.

Then I came to your last post, in which you stated (as if it were God speaking) :
Quote:
I'll readily show mercy and an abundant pardon if you only come back."

So.... my 2c is that 'sanctification' is the act of setting oneself apart unto God... like, the act of returning you described, and, God showing mercy, is how they are 'justified' - because in the Old Testament God was the God of Calvary - that's how He was able to [i]forgive[/i] sin - even through Calvary had not occurred yet.

So... which is it? Justification first, or sanctification? You've aligned yourself with [u]both[/u], in your last and second last post.

Sorry. Couldn't resist challenging you... ;-)

 2009/12/12 6:07









 Re:

Quote:
that's how He was able to forgive sin

There was no forgiveness of sins per se, they were only covered by a temporary substitute of the blood of animals. These were the sins that Christ made atonement for and then there were those sins that had no atonement for because of rebellion in the house of Israel. So when Christ came, the sins of Israel was very great, no wonder it is said that the "axe lay at the root of the tree". In mercy God came on the scene to get rid of the debt that Israel owed. (plus our own). Hebrews 10

Thanks for your post, this has really stirred something in me regarding this subject that I never knew before.

 2009/12/12 9:06









 Re: Rom 6:1

Quote:
There was no forgiveness of sins per se, they were only covered by a temporary substitute of the blood of animals.

I know (about the covering of sin[u]s[/u] by the blood of animals). But there [i]was[/i] forgiveness, because the Bible says there was.

Lev 4:20, 26, 31, 35 etc

But this is interesting: Psa 32:1, Psa 85:2, Psa 130:4.

My point is... as an example, Matt 9:2 - before the cross?

Quote:
These were the sins that Christ made atonement for

Christ made atonement for [u]all[/u] sins.
Quote:
and then there were those sins that had no atonement for because of rebellion in the house of Israel.

The reason Israel did not experience forgiveness, was not that lack of atonement, but their lack of repentance.
Quote:
So when Christ came, the sins of Israel was very great,

But God didn't come for Israel only. He had 'other sheep' to call. (John 10)
Quote:
no wonder it is said that the "axe lay at the root of the tree".

I'm not sure why you're picking on Israel. That axe is laid to the 'tree' of the knowledge of good and evil in everyone who identifies properly with Christ's death. This doesn't include unbelievers, whether Jewish or Gentile. Matt 3:10, Luke 3:9. Notice too, that John the Baptist actually said 'trees': that's us - but just one root: Adam.
Quote:
These were the sins that Christ made atonement for

Joshua 3:16 That the waters which came down from above stood [and] rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that [is] beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, [even] the salt sea, failed, [and] were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho.

(My understanding of the reference to the city of Adam, is, that the waters piled up to way way [i]beyond[/i] Adam. In other words, our father Adam was included in the deliverance.)


Now, I'll be interested in what you make of the sins being covered, but the transgression, or the iniquity, being 'forgiven'.

 2009/12/12 9:31





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