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 Romans 10:17




Simple question: does anyone here believe Romans 10:17?

Question 2:does anyone see that if we believe Paul, we must question the doctrine which states that [i]unless[/i] a man has [i]already[/i] been regenerated (born again, Titus 3:5), he [i]cannot[/i] hear God say [i]anything[/i]?


Heb 11:6; Rom 1:19, 20, 21, 25; John 5:25; John 11:43, 44







 2009/12/6 9:42
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: Romans 10:17

the word in rom 10:17 for hearing are in some cases in the NT translated preached.

the word is in this verse avkoh, akoe {ak-o-ay'}
Meaning: 1) the sense of hearing 2) the organ of hearing, the ear 3) the thing heard 3a) instruction, namely oral 3a1) of preaching the gospel 3b) hearsay, report or rumour

other places it occurs in scripture.

avkoh,, h/j, h`—1. the faculty of hearing 1 Cor 12:17. The act of hearing, listening 2 Pt 2:8; avkoh|/ avkou,sete you will indeed hear Mt 13:14. The organ of hearing, the ear Mk 7:35; Ac 17:20.—2. that which is heard: fame, report, rumor Mt 4:24; 14:1; 24:6. Account, report, preaching J 12:38; Gal 3:2, 5; Hb 4:2; 1 Th 2:13.


And i would claim unregenerate men can hear Gods voice, not in the sense of communion and worship and prayer in spirit and truth. but several times in scripture God spoke to people, in OT he spoke to many that was not "born again" in the new testament sense, he spoke to Saul of Tarsus before he was born again, that encounter was a tool for his conversion, but in the very first contact from God he was not regenerated, he was probably after or during the "speaking of God". But this does not meen anyone can hear God speak, but i think its not wise to make a rule and say god will never speak to an unbeliever before they have been translated into the kingdom of heaven.

Just my thoughts, and in one way the scripture is Gods voice, so by hearing them man can hear gods words and by them be regenerated when mixed with faith.


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CHRISTIAN

 2009/12/6 9:53Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Romans 10:17

Quote:
Question 2:does anyone see that if we believe Paul, we must question the doctrine which states that unless a man has already been regenerated (born again, Titus 3:5), he cannot hear God say anything?



A couple of questions come to mind:

If an unregenerate man cannot hear the voice of God, how did Saul, and those around him, hear the audible voice of God? How did I hear God speaking to me when He convicted me of Sin and drew me to Himself at my conversion?

1Co 2:12-14
(12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It is true that the lost man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God in the context of, "Wow, I receive that as revelation and truth to me. I will allow that to be applied to my life.", but rather he says, "That's crazy. You Christians and what you believe just makes no sense." But this is different from hearing what God says to you.

In fact, the following incident happened to a young man I know who had gone off into a life of drug addiction. He was getting high with some friends when God gave him an vision of what was going on in His life. He saw himself standing on a large spiral staircase with many other people. He looked up as a large hand began to move down the row of people, pointing at some and not at others. He said, "I knew when I saw the hand that it was the hand of God and He was pronouncing judgment on those who He pointed at." He said that he knew he was lost and would be judged. But, he said, when God came to me He said, Josh, I am giving you another chance.

This young man battled with this vision for some time. He said after that nothing worked. He tried to get high again, and the drugs seemed to have little or no effect anymore. Shortly after this He came back to the Lord, turned himself in at a local sheriff's office where he was wanted, and began to seek God while serving his sentence.

So I believe that the lost can and do hear God's voice.

Travis


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Travis

 2009/12/6 10:21Profile









 Re: Romans 10:17


Hi Christian, thanks for the Greek. :-) I believe the physical ear is the usual way for the word of God to enter a man's consciousness, although I believe also, that God's grace is so large towards us, that He may speak many times before the man feels urged to respond in an observable fashion.


twayneb, the verses from Corinthians were written to Christians, who should have been quite aware of the difference between their 'natural' man, and their 'spiritual' man.

The dissonance experienced by an unbeliever when God speaks to him, is surely one of the factors which drives him to exercise faith towards God, to bring that conflict to an end (ie reconciliation with God).

I notice also, in John 3, that Jesus refers to 'hearing' the Spirit, like a wind rustling through trees. Of this, Nicodemus had become aware. However, Jesus places 'see'ing the kingdom of heaven, and, entering it, as definite consequences of being born again.

 2009/12/6 13:39
Leo_Grace
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Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re: Romans 10:17

Quote:
the doctrine which states that unless a man has already been regenerated (born again, Titus 3:5), he cannot hear God say anything?


I would have difficulty believing a doctrine like this. You cannot have faith in something you know nothing of. You must hear and understand God and/or his word before you can believe.

 2009/12/6 13:41Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2000
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I believe the physical ear is the usual way for the word of God to enter a man's consciousness, although I believe also, that God's grace is so large towards us, that He may speak many times before the man feels urged to respond in an observable fashion.



If you mean by preaching of the word, then I think you are right. If you mean the Spirit of God speaking to us individually, I would say the actual audible voice of God is extraordinarily rare. I think God speaks spirit to spirit with us in most cases.

You are absolutely right, the verses from Corinthians were written to believers. I brought them up because, in my experience, these are the scriptures often used by those who say that the unregenerate man cannot hear God's voice. In context, that is not what those scriptures are saying.

I praise God that He both loved me when I was in my sin, and spoke to me, calling me out of my sin.

Travis.


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Travis

 2009/12/6 13:50Profile









 Re: Romans 10:17


Quote:
You cannot have faith in something you know nothing of. You must hear and understand God and/or his word before you can believe.

Here, Leo, you touch on the issues which arise from Rom 1:21. And I agree with you. I think the world's powers have worked very hard in the last 80 years or so, to pour ridicule on every aspect of what may be known of God at an elementary level of honesty. And yet, I do believe the preaching of the word can and does cut through a great deal of the misinformation which seems to have prevailed.

There was a testimony at Greenock, from a young woman who was brought up without any knowledge of God, and yet the first time she went to TSC she sensed the tugging of the Holy Spirit, such that she had to respond to Him. She had never read the Bible before, and had been led to believe it was irrelevant. Yet through the work of God in that one service, she began to wonder if she had been missing something that is actually true. I think that's an instance of the word of God [i]creating faith[/i] in someone - like the testimony shared by Travis, of his friend.

 2009/12/6 15:11
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Quote:
I would have difficulty believing a doctrine like this. You cannot have faith in something you know nothing of. You must hear and understand God and/or his word before you can believe



13 years ago, I was working in my garden. At that time my son was 3 years old. I was thinking about what it means to be a father. As a father what is it that I should teach my son to prepare him for life. I remembered back to how my parents raised me. I was brought up in an byzantine catholic church where Ukrainian was spoken. I thought to myself, that I should 'expose" my son to religion like my father did.

Immediately following this thought, I heard these words in my mind.

"How will you teach you son about Me, when you do not know Me?"

I was not born again at that moment, that moment would follow about 2 months later.....

God's mercy and grace is shed upon men, the light of life is made manifest to all......
..................................................................................................
Pro 1:20 Wisdom calls aloud outside; She raises her voice in the open squares.
Pro 1:21 She cries out in the chief concourses, [fn] At the openings of the gates in the city She speaks her words:
Pro 1:22 "How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge.
Pro 1:23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.


Job 33:14 For God may speak in one way, or in another, [Yet man] does not perceive it.
Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, While slumbering on their beds,
Job 33:16 Then He opens the ears of men, And seals their instruction.
Job 33:17 In order to turn man [from his] deed, And conceal pride from man,
Job 33:18 He keeps back his soul from the Pit, And his life from perishing by the sword.
Job 33:19 "[Man] is also chastened with pain on his bed, And with strong [pain] in many of his bones,
Job 33:20 So that his life abhors bread, And his soul succulent food.
Job 33:21 His flesh wastes away from sight, And his bones stick out [which once] were not seen.
Job 33:22 Yes, his soul draws near the Pit, And his life to the executioners.
Job 33:23 "If there is a messenger for him, A mediator, one among a thousand, To show man His uprightness,
Job 33:24 Then He is gracious to him, and says, 'Deliver him from going down to the Pit; I have found a ransom';
.................................................................................................

Unless God make's Himself known man cannot be saved by His Life.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2009/12/6 15:42Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Unless God make's Himself known man cannot be saved by His Life.

Amen Jeff!

 2009/12/6 16:59
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi rookie...

Interesting -- and thanks for sharing!

I had a similar experience when I came to Christ. I was quite agnostic as a teenager. I was an honor student from a good Christian home. I had plenty of friends. However, I just didn't know if God truly existed or not.

Little-by-little, I began to wonder whether or not God existed. This question troubled me quite a bit. I reasoned that, if God existed, I was in deep trouble. I remember thinking about this one day in the early summer as I watered the lawn. I started thinking about the story from the Bible about men who saw Jesus after he resurrected. I thought to myself, "[i]If God really existed, and I saw him, I would run to him and embrace him[/i]." I remember being shocked at thinking something like this...because I was fairly "certain" that God didn't exist. However, I felt like I was onto something (if that makes sense). I knew that I didn't believe in God (let alone know Him)...but I felt something overwhelm me.

The next week, I went to a Christian summer camp. I really didn't want to go, but I knew that my parents were going to send me anyway. Besides, they had plenty of "normal" things to do (like a pool, a lake, hiking trails, horseback riding, etc...). So I didn't mind being "forced" to attend the camp.

During the week, we had to attend "share groups" at various times throughout the day. One day, we were told that we needed to bring our "favorite Scripture verse or passage" to the share group the next morning. Since I didn't really read the Bible, I didn't have a "favorite" passage of Scripture. So, a few minutes before the group was going to meet in the morning, I tried to find one. I quickly opened up my unused Bible to Matthew 11:28-30. I quickly read over it and thought that it sounded good enough, so I put a pencil in my Bible to hold the place.

I arrived at my share group, nervous that the others might realize that I didn't really know or understand the Bible (or even truly believe in God). Our group went around the circle with each person reading or reciting their verse(s). Finally, it was my turn. I read the verse aloud. As soon as I finished reading it, I looked up at my share counselor and the others (to see what they thought). I remember that the counselor just nodded and said, "Nice," and then quickly moved on to the next person. I was happy that I seemed to fool everyone with the verses. No one else seemed to have even cared about the verses that I read. Little did I know that God was going to use that passage to directly impact me.

Throughout that day, I felt this extreme heaviness on my heart. Everywhere I walked, I kept thinking about the words in that verse: "[i]Come to me[/i]..." Over and over again throughout the day, I heard those words pierce through my agnosticism. "[i]Come to me...and I will give you rest[/i]." In fact, that passage actually made me quite miserable for the rest of the day (if that makes sense). I couldn't enjoy myself while I played basketball or volleyball. I couldn't enjoy myself when I was canoeing or in the pool. I was still myself, but the realization of how "lost" I was had become overwhelming. I now agonized throughout the day...when I mentally sinned and when I was just alone. Yet I tried to hide the fact that I had suddenly become the most miserable person on Earth.

That night, I attended the mandatory Church meeting. It was an old fashioned "campmeeting" type of service outside in the Texas warmth. I remember watching people as they worshiped the Lord during the songs. I was still trying to hide the misery within my own soul. After the sermon, the speaker invited people to get right with God. There were plenty of other teenagers around me who were even weeping as they "got right with God." Me? I was still so empty and miserable inside. I didn't think that I could hide it any longer, so I finally walked off from the camp. I walked out into that field in utter despair. Suddenly, when I couldn't stand it any longer, I thought about going to find one of the counselors to pray for me. It had never dawned upon me until that moment that I could actually become a Christian. I suppose that this was because I didn't actually believe in God...maybe until that point. I looked back at the meeting area and realized that all of the adults, counselors and pastors seemed to have their hands full. So I walked further out in the field in that warm Texas night.

When I stood out in that field...I was still in agony. I felt so completely empty and "dry" (if that makes sense). Finally, when I stood at the apex of turmoil, I just whispered in a painful release, "[i]God, I want to know you[/i]."

It was then that I heard God speak to me. It was simple and pure and undeniably from God (and not myself): "[i]You don't know Me[/i]." This set off a release from deep within. I cried out to God over the next few hours as I poured my entire life out like water before Him. I told God that I would trade all that I was, and all that I would ever be, if I could just know Him, and be His friend. I kept telling Him that I wanted to know Him. It was real...undeniably supernatural...and I felt as scales (like Saul) had fallen from my spiritual eyes. I knew that I was suddenly born again. Every bit of unbelief had faded into the obscurity of the shadow of the knowledge that not only does God exist, but that I now knew the one true living God.

I remember laying in my bunk that night...feeling so "new." I knew that God existed...and that I knew Him (no matter if anyone else on Earth truly knew Him too). I had just passed from my old life...into my new eternal life.

Rookie, I agree. God spoke to me BEFORE I even truly believed in Him. Yes, He used a passage from the Word of God. Yet this came before I even believed that God even existed. I was not "regenerated" before this point. I was still an "honest agnostic" when I read that passage from Matthew. Yet God used it to speak to me and penetrate deeply within my heart of hearts.

So, I am thankful that we can hear God's voice BEFORE we are regenerated. In fact, I doubt many people can be regenerated without first hearing God speak to them or reveal Himself to them.

:-)


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Christopher

 2009/12/6 19:55Profile





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