SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Ephesians 5:3

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 Next Page )
PosterThread
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:

Miccah wrote:

Leo_Grace wrote:
Quote:


I would agree with ginnyrose here. In cases where the child is born of the parent's sin, it would indeed be better for that child to be raised in a loving Christian home where that type of sin would no longer be propagated. It is reasonable to expect that a child raised by a sinful mother would tend to think that such behavior is OK, and so sinfulness in society gains ground.




No room for Grace I take it? How about Mercy? The Lord stats that He has known us before we were in our mothers womb.

On the flip side. What if you have sworn, or taken the Lord's name in vain? What if you have ever stolen something? Should we then take the child out of that home because of those sins? Wouldn't it make sense to do this as well?

If we would do this, who would our children live with? Surely it could not be my home, because I have sinned before I was a believer, and I have sinned after I was a believer.

What should we do with my 4 children now, for their father is a sinner and sins?



Dear Christiaan,

Please don't misconstrue the intention here. Of course there must be room for love in all that transpires. The idea here is that the desire to express such Christian love as been so overemphasized as to overshadow and, in modern times, obliterate the need to also identify sin for what it is and condemn it.

Humanism says the child should never be separated from its mother -- that is nowhere to be found in the Bible. In fact, there was the OT practice of dedicating a child to God such that he lived away from his parents in the temple. Rather than think of this as cruelly removing the child from its mother, look at it instead as distancing the child from sin and bringing him closer to God.

There would be every reason to restore the child to the parent, or to bring the sinful parent into the broader foster family, if repentance and separation from sin is apparent in the parent's life.

Your argument, loving though it may be, is exactly what the humanists use to defend sinfulness.

 2009/12/3 13:48Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Thank you for your gracious reply. I pray that I can convey my thoughts on this matter in a brotherly way that edifies rather then breaks down.


Leo_Grace wrote:

Quote:


Humanism says the child should never be separated from its mother -- that is nowhere to be found in the Bible. In fact, there was the OT practice of dedicating a child to God such that he lived away from his parents in the temple. Rather than think of this as cruelly removing the child from its mother, look at it instead as distancing the child from sin and bringing him closer to God.




Those examples you are talking about have nothing to do with out of wedlock birth's. The only example that may hold some weight (that I can think off hand) is David's example with Bathsheba, where is the child died because of their sin.


Brother, do you have children? If so, have you sinned against the Lord in [u]any[/u] form of sin after having this child? Should the weight of your sin allow for the removal of this child from your care? Most importantly... [i]is removing a child from its family God's will?[/i]


Quote:
There would be every reason to restore the child to the parent, or to bring the sinful parent into the broader foster family, if repentance and separation from sin is apparent in the parent's life.




Apparent to whom? Me? You? The Elders? [i]Whose Elders decide, the fathers or the mothers?[/i]


Quote:
Your argument, loving though it may be, is exactly what the humanists use to defend sinfulness.






Brother... come now. Just because we disagree is not a reason to lump me or my thoughts in with humanists and say that I am defending sin. What I am saying is to allow for mercy and grace to work in the sinners life.

In fact, if what you are saying were to be true and we as a Church body of Christ would be taking people's children away from them due to a sin, [u]which one of us would ever be allowed to have children live with us?[/u] All have sinned.

Brother, we all will be judged in the same way that we judge others. I agree that this issue needs to be addressed and addressed hard, but taking people's children away because we disagree with how and by whom they where concieved, is exactly what Germany did in the 40's.


Regardless, I appreciate your heart felt concern on this issue. Out of wedlock child birth affects us all Love ya bro! :-)


_________________
Christiaan

 2009/12/3 15:41Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:
Regardless, I appreciate your heart felt concern on this issue. Out of wedlock child birth affects us all Love ya bro!


:-)

 2009/12/3 16:17Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7469
Mississippi

 Re:

Miccah,

How would you suggest that Ephesians 5:3 become a reality in your brotherhood if it is beset by unwed moms? Did you not notice the scripture says that it should not ONCE be named among you?

Mercy? it has and is being applied but the problem is worsening...

I suggested adoption since that appears to be the best solution - as a rule. Scriptures use the term to symbolize our acceptance into the family of God.

What say, Miccah?

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/12/3 20:38Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7469
Mississippi

 Re:

MaryJane,

God bless you, my dear. I know this was a hard post for you to write.

I am so glad you have experienced the mercy and grace of God in your life.

Your husband must have been a man, even if he gave into sin: he took responcibility for his actions and provided for you and his child. Too many dads leave the mother set, forcing her to make it on her own.

When I was a teen we were told that if people are promiscuous the probability is that they will then get involved in adultery after they marry. They also said that if a couple fornicates that marriage will likely end up in divorce. Interestingly, the stats will proved this as well. Not only that, chastity programs will teach it as well.

MJ, the fact that you are married to your child's dad and that you are still together and serving the LORD is very rare considering the circumstances in which you got together in marriage. Do you realize how rare and unusual your situation is? Must be the mercy and grace of God at work there...

Blessings,
ginnyrose

PS: In my experience at CPC some of my clients will mock at my use of the tern 'fornication'. And these were not ignorant youth, but those that go to church...


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/12/3 20:52Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

ginnyrose wrote:

Quote:


How would you suggest that Ephesians 5:3 become a reality in your brotherhood if it is beset by unwed moms? Did you not notice the scripture says that it should not ONCE be named among you?




Sister, if you are going to remove the child, why stop there? What is your solution for the mother and father of the child? Should they not be removed as well, based on what the scriptures say? But why stop there.?.? What about the church member that has some sort of sin in their life?


Quote:
I suggested adoption since that appears to be the best solution - as a rule. Scriptures use the term to symbolize our acceptance into the family of God.




I respect your views on this topic, but I do not feel that adoption is the best solution for unwed mothers and fathers. Does this mean in [u]every[/u] case? Absolutly not. There are some cases that children should be taken away. But to simply take a child away because the mother and father are not married is similar to something that we read about in persecuted countries.

As for the Lord's adoption of us into His family is because of His mercy and grace. To parallel this scripture along side of taking children born of fornication is past a stretch.

Quote:
What say, Miccah?



I say come Lord Jesus!



_________________
Christiaan

 2009/12/3 23:02Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

If at all possible, what is your answers to my questions? :-)


Quote:
In fact, if what you are saying were to be true and we as a Church body of Christ would be taking people's children away from them due to a sin, which one of us would ever be allowed to have children live with us?




Quote:
Brother, do you have children? If so, have you sinned against the Lord in any form of sin after having this child? Should the weight of your sin allow for the removal of this child from your care? Most importantly... is removing a child from its family God's will?




Quote:
On the flip side. What if you have sworn, or taken the Lord's name in vain? What if you have ever stolen something? Should we then take the child out of that home because of those sins? Wouldn't it make sense to do this as well?

If we would do this, who would our children live with? Surely it could not be my home, because I have sinned before I was a believer, and I have sinned after I was a believer.




And this is the question that I am most interested in seeing the solution to.


Quote:
What should we do with my 4 children now, for their father is a sinner and sins?




Thank you in advance and blessings!


_________________
Christiaan

 2009/12/3 23:07Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7469
Mississippi

 Re:

Miccah,

Quote:
In fact, if what you are saying were to be true and we as a Church body of Christ would be taking people's children away from them due to a sin, which one of us would ever be allowed to have children live with us?



Answer: This Scripture is NOT talking about sin in general, it is talking about fornication. How are you going to deal with the results of that sin in light of Ephesians 5:3? I would like to know. What has been done is only perpetrating the sin more. Immorality has lost its shame, stigma even among church people. How are you going to regain the sacredness of sex when it is being abused by casual, careless, sinful living?

The reason I floated the idea of adopting these children out is it would work to instill some holy fear in the life of girls if they knew they could not keep a child born to them out of wedlock. Miccah, illegitimacy here in the south - the Bible belt, if you please - is worse then any other part of the county. Many of these single moms are religious people. There are concerned people in those churches but are powerless to effect change. Acceptance is the rule. Miccah, I have seen girls cry when told they are pregnant but I do not ever recall seeing a girl cry because she sinned! And I worked as a counselor at a CPC for 15 years. And it goes on and on....

Now, according to Ephesians 5:3, how are you going to deal with illegitimacy? Fornication? We are not talking about lying, stealing, cheating, etc. You have never answered my question...

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2009/12/4 0:21Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

ginnyrose wrote:

Quote:


Now, according to Ephesians 5:3, how are you going to deal with illegitimacy? Fornication? We are not talking about lying, stealing, cheating, etc. You have never answered my question...




Ok sister. I tried to answer your question to the best of my ability so I will try a different avenue.

I will answer your question, but please, you know as well as I that proof texting is not the best way to prove what our Lord commands. If you will take all of Ephesians 5, you will see that sin is talked about through the entire chapter, BUT if you wish to stick to 5:3, I will honor that. Here is my response.


[u][b]1 Corinthians 5:9-13[/b][/u]

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. [u]Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world[/u], or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to [u]keep company[/u] with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. [u]Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[/u]


Put away from yourselves the evil person. I see no place in ANY scripture that talks of adopting out babies of fornicators.

Blessings sister.


_________________
Christiaan

 2009/12/4 0:56Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Christiann,

I think you are reacting strongly to something that was not proposed at all by anyone in this thread. Ginnyrose explained this clearly: the specific sin here is fornication - willful and unrepentant practice of sexual immorality. That should answer some of those questions you posted.

As to the question regarding my family:

Yes, I have three children. My wife and I were married 19 years ago, and we did not "know" each other until after the wedding. In all those 19 years we have been faithful to each other even through the three years that we were apart due to unavoidable, involuntary circumstance.

As to the question regarding your four kids:

Are you a fornicator? If you are (but I don't think that you are), then I honestly believe that you should not be allowed to have any children (not just your kids) around you.

In Christ,
Leo

 2009/12/4 1:25Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy