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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : You Can Be Holy

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NSCalvinist
Member



Joined: 2009/11/9
Posts: 18


 You Can Be Holy

I have put together some questions for those who oppose the preaching of complete repentance (forsaking all sin in this life). Those who don't believe in holiness also do not believe in repentance, because repentance is the beginning of a holy life.

1) Which sin can't be repented of? Which sin is it impossible to forsake? Please be specific. Which sin can not be overcome through Jesus Christ? Which sin can't we live without?

2) According to your theology, how much sin can a man commit and still go to Heaven? What sin can we hold on to and still be Christians?

3) What is meant by Jesus when He said "follow me"? Matt 4:19.

4) What is meant by Jesus when He said "For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you." John 13:5

5) What is meant by Jesus when He said "be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect"? Matt 5:48

6) What is meant by Jesus when He said "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"? Luke 13:3

7) What is meant by Jesus when He said "go and sin no more"? John 5:14, John 8:11

8) What is meant by Jesus when He said "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

9) What is meant by Jesus when He said "Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God." Matt 5:8

10) What is meant by John when he said "the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." 1 John 1:7

11) What is meant by John when he said "if we confess our sins, He is fiathful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"? 1 John 1:9

12) What is meant by John when he said "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And IF anyone sins...." 1 John 2:1

13) What is meant by John when he said "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." 1 John 2:3

14) What is meant by John when he said "He who says, 'I know Him' and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4.

15) What is meant by John when he said "but whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him." 1 John 2:5

16) What is meant by John when he said "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." 1 John 2:6

17) What was meant by John when he said "And you konw that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin." 1 John 3:5

18) What is meant by John when he said "Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him." 1 John 3:6.

19) What is meant by John when he said "He who sins is of the devil"? 1 John 3:8.

20) What is meant by John when he said "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God"? 1 John 3:9

21) What is meant by John when he said "In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God". 1 John 3:10

22) What is meant by John when he said "And whatever we ask we recieve from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight"? 1 John 3:22

23) What is meant by John when he said "This is love, that we walk according to His commandments"? 2 John 1:6

24) What is meant by John when he said "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God"? 2 John 1:9

25) What is meant by John when he said "but he who does evil has not seen God"? 3 John 1:11

26) What is meant by Jude when he said "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy"? Jude 1:24

27) What was meant by Paul when he wrote "having been set free from sin"? Romans 6:18, 6:22

28) What is meant by Paul when he said "Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord"? Romans 6:11

29) What is meant by Paul when he said "And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God"? Romans 6:13

30) What is meant by Paul when he said "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."? 2 Cor 7:1

31) What is meant by Paul when he said "Him we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus"? Col 1:28

32) What is meant by Paul when he wrote: “Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.”? Col 4:12

33) What was meant by James when he said “But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.”? James 1:4

34) What did Peter mean when he said “But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.”? 1 Peter 5:10

35) What was meant by Paul who said “I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.”? Gal 5:15

36) What was meant by John the Baptist when he said “The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”? John 1:29

37) What does the Psalmist mean when he wrote "Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord? Or who may stand in His holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, Who has not lifted up his soul to an idol, Nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive blessing from the Lord, And righteousness from the God of his salvation."? Ps 24:3-6

38) What is meant by Jesus who said "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."? John 17:23

39) What is meant by Paul who said "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins"? Heb 10:26

40) What is meant by Paul who said "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified." 2 Co 13:5

41) What is meant by Jesus who said "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also."? Matt 23:25-26

42) What was meant by Luke when he wrote "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."? Luke 1:6

43) What is meant by Paul who said “who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”? 1 Co 1:8

44) What is meant by Paul who said “that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world”? Php 2:15

45) What is meant by Paul who said “concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.” Php 3:6

46) What is meant by Paul who said “in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight”? Col 1:22

47) What is meant by Paul who said “so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints”? 1 Th 3:13

48) What is meant by Paul who said “Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”? 1 Th 5:23

49) What is meant by Paul who said “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach”? 1 Ti 3:2

50) What is meant by Paul who said “But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless”? 1 Ti 3:10

51) What is meant by Paul who said “And these things command, that they may be blameless.” 1 Ti 5:7

52) What is meant by Paul who said “that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing” 1 Ti 6:14

53) What is meant by Paul who said “if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination.” Tit 1:6

54) What is meant by Paul who said “For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money”? Tit 1:7

55) What is meant by Paul who said “Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;” 2 Pe 3:14

56) What is meant by Paul who said “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

57) What is meant by James who said “Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded”? James 4:8

58) What is meant by Jesus who said “Repent, and believe in the gospel." Mr 1:15

59) What is meant by Paul who said "Be saved from this perverse generation”? Acts 2:40

60) What is meant by Paul who said “And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” Gal 5:24

61) What does it mean when Paul said "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it"? 1 Cor 10:13

62) What is meant by Paul when he said “So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”?

63) What was meant by Jesus when He said “But Jesus said to him, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God." Luke 9:62

 2009/11/21 9:38Profile









 Re: You Can Be Holy

6) What is meant by Jesus when He said "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish"? Luke 13:3

This means that if we think we're better than another person, we need to realize that we all are just as worst as the worst sinner out there. Failure to think yourself that way will result in perishing at the end.

 2009/11/21 14:46
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re: You Can Be Holy

NSCalvinist said:

Quote:
Those who don't believe in holiness also do not believe in repentance, because repentance is the beginning of a holy life.



I don't think there is anyone here who doesn't believe in holiness or repentance. However, the holiness of the believer comes through the righteousness given to us by Christ through his blood. On our own, we all repent of sin and strive to attain perfect holiness as we are taught in the Bible, and as we are enabled by the Holy Spirit. However, the Bible also reminds us clearly that there is no righteous man who does not sin (despite all our efforts to avoid sin). We must ascribe our "holiness" to Christ and not to ourselves.

[i]Ecc 7:20 There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.[/i]

 2009/11/21 17:08Profile









 Re:

This may have been true of Solomons day, but it is not true of all generations, especially not under the New Covenant and the born again transformation.

[b]"There is not a righteous man on earth"[/b]

“And they were both RIGHTEOUS before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.” Luke 1:6

“The effectual fervent prayers of a righteous man availeth much” James 5:16

[b]"who does what is right"[/b]

“If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth rightousness is born of him.” 1 John 2:29

[b]"and sinneth not"[/b]

“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not” 1 John 3:6

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not” 1 John 5:18


Jesus Christ can make us morally perfect in this life. Through the Gospel of Jesus Christ we can have a heart of love and love is the fulfillment of the law. If we have a heart of love we are morally perfect. Only the pure in heart will see God.

Nobody is morally perfect on our own. On our own we sin every day. But through Jesus Christ we can have victory over all sin. By the grace of God we can live a holy life overcoming sin.

According to 1 Cor. 10:13 God has made it possible for us to never sin again. If we want to, we can go the rest of our lives without sinning. Praise God for His goodness!

- If God doesn't want us to sin, He would make it possible for us not to sin
- God doesn't want us to sin
- Therefore God makes it possible for us not to sin

If sin is unavoidable, God must want us to sin.

If we cannot live holy lives in this world, sin and the devil is stronger than God and His grace!!

And if sin is unavoidable, nobody could be saved because in order to get saved we must forsake all our sins.

And if sin is unavoidable, nobody is going to Heaven, because everyone who dies in sin goes to hell.

And if sin is unavoidable, nobody is covered by the blood of Christ, because Christ's blood only covers those who repent. Christ's blood is not a license to sin.

The problems with the view of the unavoidability of sin just go on and on.


 2009/11/21 18:10
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

NSCalvinist/TheArminian (more of Jesse Morrell's accounts?):

Your opinion:

Quote:
Nobody is morally perfect on our own. On our own we sin every day. But through Jesus Christ we can have victory over all sin. By the grace of God we can live a holy life overcoming sin.

According to 1 Cor. 10:13 God has made it possible for us to never sin again. If we want to, we can go the rest of our lives without sinning. Praise God for His goodness!

- If God doesn't want us to sin, He would make it possible for us not to sin
- God doesn't want us to sin
- Therefore God makes it possible for us not to sin

If sin is unavoidable, God must want us to sin.



These are all your own erroneous ideas, for they are contrary to God's Word. Speaking to Christian believers, the Apostle John said:

[i]1Jn 1:8-10 "[b]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us[/b]. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. [b]If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives[/b]."[/i]

You are trying to propagate false teaching that a man can be totally without sin, thereby stoking a man's pride in self and leading him to glorify in himself rather than in the grace of God.

All the Biblical teaching about "believers never sinning" doesn't mean that they will successfully live a sinless life. It means that they will successfully live a life that is no longer enslaved to sin, and no longer desiring sin. It means that, by God's grace, they will hate sin and will repent of sin every time it happens in their lives.

With this understanding of what those verses mean, all the scriptures quoted by me and by you are in harmony; with your erroneous idea, you embrace the scriptures that support your position while ignoring 1Jn 1:8-10 and other similar teachings.

Since Scripture cannot contradict itself, you are in error.

Jesse (or Jesse-wannabe), please stop trying to spread your false teaching in this forum -- by the grace of God, you will not succeed.

Solomon's teaching is true for all time:

[i]Ecc 7:20 There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.[/i]

 2009/11/21 18:41Profile









 Re:

1 JN 1:8 THOROUGHLY EXAMINED & PROPERLY EXPLAINED

For many years professing Christians have appealed to 1 John 1:8 to justify having sin in their lives, and to condemn the righteous for claiming to obey God. This Bible verse has been used as a weapon against holiness preaching. Even in the days of George Fox he said that while he would preach in the open air, “the professors were in a rage, all pleading for sin and imperfection, and could not endure to hear talk of perfection, and of a holy and sinless life.” These professors would use the Bible to justify their unholy lives. George Fox said, “I bade them give over babbling about the Scriptures, which were holy men’s words, whilst they pleaded for unholiness.” No doubt 1 John 1:8 has been abused for a long time, used as a weapon against righteous living. For that reason, I’d like to properly address this passage of scripture that has been so largely misunderstood and improperly used.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” 1 John 1:8

1. This passage must always be looked at in context. The entire book of John must be consulted, especially verses 1:7-10, 2:1. Those who isolate this passage usually twist its meaning to be contrary to the rest of the epistle which is about moral perfection. The meaning of a verse is always lost or misunderstood when scripture isolation is practiced. The immediately surrounding context gives us much clarity into this verse.

2. The phrase, "have no sin" in verse 8 could mean two things. It could mean "have no sin" in your present conduct, or it could mean "have no sin" on your record. Verse 10 is very clear that John is talking about those who deny having any disobedience on their record by saying "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." None can deny that they have sinned or disobeyed in the past, but Christians can say that they presently obey God.

3. Verse 7 and 9 promise, not merely the pardon of sin, but also cleansing from sin. There is a proper distinction made between forgiveness and cleansing, “to forgive us our sins, AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” These passages promise not only forgiveness of sin but also freedom from sin. They promise freedom, not merely from some sins, but freedom from "all" sins, "to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness".

4. The man spoken of in verse 8 is the man who had not yet experienced verse 9. That is, the deceived man who denies having any sin is the one who has not yet confessed their sins, been forgiven of their sins, and has had their sins cleansed out of their life. Verse 8 is directed to, or specifically talking about, the man who has not yet been forgiven and cleansed as described in verse 9. Verse 9 is written as the solution to the sin described in verse 8. The man in verse 8 is the one who denies his need for what is offered in verse 9, that is, he denies instead of confesses his sins, and therefore says he needs no forgiveness or cleansing, he denies his need of being converted and denies his need of Jesus Christ.

5. If 1:8 means that nobody can state that Jesus Christ has cleansed them from all sin, then saying that you have experienced 1:9 makes you a liar. This interpretation of 1:8 would mean that believing 1:9 would make you “deceived”.

6. If "have no sin" means that no Christian can state as Paul did that we are presently "free from sin" (Romans 6:22), then John immediately contradicts his purpose as stated in 2:1, "these things write I unto you, that ye sin not." This interpretation would mean that John was writing this epistle so that we would “deceive ourselves” and so that “the truth” would not be “in us”. Why would John write them so that they “sin not” if when they believe that they “sin not” they are simply “deceived” without “the truth”?

7. If 1:8 means that you are a liar if you claim to presently keep God's commandments, then 2:3-4 is a total contradiction. These passages state that "we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Such an interpretation would amount to this: if you claim to keep God's commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you (1:8), but if you claim to know God but do not keep His commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you (2:4). So the truth would not be in the one who claims to keep God's commandments, and the truth would not be in the one who says they know God yet breaks His commandments. Then the only logical conclusion would be that nobody knows God, if the Bible teaches that everyone presently breaks God’s commandments and you cannot know God if you presently break His commandments.

8. If 1:8 means that we all always have sin in our lives, then we do not "abideth in him" and have "not seen him, neither known him" according to 3:6, we are all "of the devil" according to 3:8, and we have njesseot been born of God according to 3:9.

9. If 1:8 means that you are a liar if you state that you no longer break God's commandments, then the Apostle John is a liar because he says "we keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight" in 3:22. According to the popular interpretation of 1:8, this would make the Apostle “deceived”, it would mean that the Apostle was without “the truth” because he claimed to “keep his commandments”.

10. The difference between the children of God and the children of the devil, is that the children of God do what is righteous, but the children of the devil commit sin, according to 3:8-10. This could not be a proper or accurate distinction if 1:8 means that everyone converted or not has present disobedience in their life.

11. The meaning of this passage is clear: If anyone claims that they have never sinned, that they “have no sin” on their record, they are deceived. But if they confess that they have sinned, their sin can be both forgiven and cleansed out of their lives, so that they will walk in holiness and righteousness.

Regarding 1 Jn 1:8 Charles Finney said, “This verse is immediately preceded by the assertion that the "blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin." Now it would be very remarkable, if immediately after this assertion the apostle should mean to say, (as they suppose he did,) that it does not cleanse us from all sin, and if we say it does, we deceive ourselves; for he had just asserted, that the blood of Jesus Christ does cleanse us from all sin. If this were his meaning, it involves him in as palpable a contradiction as could be expressed…. This view of the subject then represents the apostle in the conclusion of the seventh verse, as saying, the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin; and in the eighth verse, as saying, that if we suppose ourselves to be cleansed from all sin, we deceive ourselves, thus flatly contradicting what he had just said. And in the ninth verse he goes on to say, that "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness;" that is, the blood of Jesus cleanseth us from all sin; but if we say it does, we deceive ourselves. "But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Now, all unrighteousness is sin. If we are cleansed from all unrighteousness, we are cleansed from sin. And now suppose a man should confess his sin, and God should in faithfulness and justice forgive his sin, and cleanse him from all unrighteousness, and then he should confess and profess that God had done this; are we to understand, that the apostle would then affirm that he deceives himself, in supposing that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all sin? …. This then appears to me to be the meaning of the whole passage. If we say that we are not sinners, that is, have no sin to need the blood of Christ; that we have never sinned, and consequently need no Saviour, we deceive ourselves.” (Finney’s Systematic Theology, Lecture LXX)


 2009/11/21 19:29
nasekom
Member



Joined: 2009/5/29
Posts: 146
Dublin,Ireland

 Re: You Can Be Holy

I agree with what Leo_Grace said.

1Jn 1:8-10 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."
AMEN to that.
Not that we use it as an excuse to sin,no way!And yes,we can be and must be Holy in Jesus Christ!
But if all what TheArminian says here is right then apostle John must be wrong.
With love in Christ,Nasekom.


_________________
Yuri

 2009/11/21 19:45Profile
GeorgeFox
Member



Joined: 2009/11/21
Posts: 7


 Re:

I was reading the forum and this thread provoked me to make an account.

Can anyone give me just one good reason why Jesus Christ cannot make us holy?

Or can you give me one good reason why Jesus doesn't want to make us holy?

If we cannot be holy in this life, it must be because Jesus Christ doesn't want us to be or because Jesus Christ cannot do it.

And the idea that you cannot live holy without being proud is absurd. We will be holy in Heaven but we won't be proud. So why can't we be holy on Earth and not be proud?

Jesus said to be perfect. If this was impossible, we shouldn't even try. Jesus wouldn't have said it if it wasn't possible.

It seems that the only verse people use in the Epistle John is 1 John 1:8 and they take it out of context. It is talking about someone who hasn't yet been forgiven and cleansed 1 John 1:9. Just read the REST of 1 John. It is all about not sinning and keeping the commandments.

If we sin, it is not because God's law is impossible. We must take the blame. It is our own fault. Inability is an excuse that will not hold up on Judgment Day.

 2009/11/21 20:22Profile
GeorgeFox
Member



Joined: 2009/11/21
Posts: 7


 Re:

Quote:
Even in the days of George Fox he said that while he would preach in the open air, “the professors were in a rage, all pleading for sin and imperfection, and could not endure to hear talk of perfection, and of a holy and sinless life.” These professors would use the Bible to justify their unholy lives. George Fox said, “I bade them give over babbling about the Scriptures, which were holy men’s words, whilst they pleaded for unholiness.”



I really like those quotes! They are the reason I decided to take this name....

 2009/11/21 20:29Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:
Can anyone give me just one good reason why Jesus Christ cannot make us holy? Or can you give me one good reason why Jesus doesn't want to make us holy?



He can make us holy and he wants to make us holy, and he does make us holy in God's eyes through his imputed righteousness when he gave his life for us.

All believers who truly love God are holy and acceptable in his sight by grace.

All believers who truly love God will hate sin and avoid it as much as possible.

But the bible, through the apostle John, tells the believers:

[i]1Jn 1:8-10 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.[/i]

So we must accept the truth in God's word, like Paul, that though we hate sin and try our best to avoid it out of love for God, we can never be free it. It is the grace of God that cleanses us of all unrighteousness when we repent.

This is not taking license to sin. This is humbly accepting God's Word that we will continue to sin and we must continually deny ourselves and seek God to avoid sin.

Anyone who claims he can live a sinless life while alive in the flesh on earth is refusing to believe the Bible in 1Jn 1:8-10.

 2009/11/21 20:32Profile





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