| Re: Unconverted People allowed in Church?|
I do not believe that we should be kicking sinners out of the Church. On the other hand, many Christians have gone door to door trying to get sinners to come to church. However, the church is not a building, the church is the Body of Christ, and we are called to be witnesses of the Lord Jesus Christ, ministers of reconcilation. The Church needs to bring the good news to the sinners, wherever they are at. This might be the work place or even the grocery store. We come into contact with sinners every day. If we would begin to believe God for souls, and to open the door for us to witness to sinners, HE would do so. It is time that we take the Word of God outside the four walls of the church building and start being the Church that the Lord has called us to be.
| 2009/11/20 18:04||Profile|
North Pole, Alaska
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I agree Mike,
I would say that the body of Christ should not rely exclusivly (or even primarily) on the gathering together of Christians for worship, correction, teaching, and the sacrements, ie "church", for evangelism. I liked what Ray Comfort has said- "a good open air preacher can reach more unsaved people in one day than many churches do in a year". I don't think that we must exclude unbelievers, but if the bible is being faithfully taught, they will either leave on their own or the seeds of the gospel will be watered.
| 2009/11/20 22:22||Profile|
Santa Cruz California
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Those sinners in Jesus' time knew they were sinners, and in desperate need of a savior.
Oh you mean like the Pharisees? I don't think they cared about being "saved" if it meant coming to Christ, and they would be the first ones to say, "kick those sinners out, so we can have a pure religion!"
And to answer your other question about there not being any mention in the Bible about "mixing" saints and sinners, how about when Christ spoke of the wheat the tares?
| 2009/11/21 1:31||Profile|
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hi, a friend of mine shared his testimony with me and it fits nicely in this area... he was brought to church one week and saw how at the end of the service some women would go to the altar and leave their purses in the pew... next week he came to get him a few purses... he got behind some rich looking ladies and sat down... at the end of the service he was the first at the altar weeping over his lost condition... should we allow sick people in hospitals? the Holy Spirit is able and willing to bring people to Jesus... i go to a church that baptizes 40 to 50 people a week and it is not the only great church in the city.jimp
| 2009/11/21 2:56||Profile|
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Please don't think that I am trying to get off subject, but there is something that came to mind while reading the posts. The question was put forth, is it biblical for unbelievers to come together with worshipers.
I believe it to be so according to Paul's admonition to the Corinthian Church in regards to speaking an unknown tongue. Let me display the verses and I'll let you decide.
Quote:Please do not thwart this thread by turning this into a tongues issue, I am merely pointing out that while the Church was in service in Corinth, unbelievers did come in to their worship. According to Paul it was a common thing.
1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 1 Corinthians 14:22 [b]Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not[/b]: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, [b]and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers[/b], will they not say that ye are mad? 1 Corinthians 14:24 But if all prophesy, [b]and there come in one that believeth not[/b], or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 1 Corinthians 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
| 2009/11/21 8:41|
VCU @ Richmond, VA
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We would be wise to define prophesy in this particular passage... Translated directly from the Greek, prophesy would mean 'to speak before.'
Basically, what a preacher does every Sunday. He stands up and prophesies before men, or, speaks before men.
This is relevant because true prophets will speak forth the truth, with authority from on High... This would bring conviction of sin to the unbeliever, while a fellowship of people speaking in tongues would make unbelievers think of Christians as insane.
Thus you have the false prophets (Benny Hinn, Joel Olsteen, etc.) Men who speak lies before men, not necessarily that they falsely predict the future.
Of course those seeking Christ (yes...I agree there is none that seeks after God... :-P yet, let us set election and free-will aside for the time being) The honest seekers looking for answers to questions about the state of their soul will come to the worship service... Should we cast out those whom the Holy Spirit drawing? By no means.
Should the majority of our 'church' services include the lost nominal 'Christians?' As well as the lost, carnal heathens who clearly have no appetite / desire for God?
Or should we present a Gospel message that is so utterly radical that it would shake them to the core of their being, and shock them into life?
I believe the reason our 'churches' are so filled with the damned is because we do not present the Gospel in such a way for them to clearly accept or clearly reject it. Thus we run around with however many % of goats along with however many % of sheep, and nothing substantial ever gets done in terms of Kingdom service.
You can call me a Pharisee if you want, but I believe a little leaven leavens the whole loaf. If you're comfortable with that... then I would pray for you.
-edit for clarification-
| 2009/11/21 9:06||Profile|
| Re: Unconverted People allowed in Church?|
My first encounter with it came in the early 90s, with the advent of the "USER FRIENDLY" model of evangelism. It was built upon the idea that LOVE was all we need, and by serving people, JUST AS THEY ARE!, AND RECEIVING THEM, JUST AS THEY ARE! they would recognize God's love in us, the Church, and want what we had; Salvation.
The visitors, however, took this doctrine to mean that God loved them, no matter what, and they were in good standing with Him anyway, so, "Rock ON!" Sin was never preached as detrimental; NO!, It may offend the seeker! Ashtrays were installed in some churches, and the "COFFEE SHOP"[ Starbuck Style ] became a must.
Preaching to the Lost became "SERVANT EVANGELISM", and handing out Cokes at stop signs, on a hot day, MUTE! [with a smile of course!], became the neo-Apostolic ministry to the Lost.
Being COOL was imperative; Earrings in the "Pastors",[ and everyone else], TATOOS...[ Christian of course..].....[remember Bentley....covered with occult symbols??] HipHop cooly hats, barefoot, dreads, and even drag became acceptable.
Most of these Churches never recovered, and though tamed somewhat, from the in your face icon churches..[ there are many], they effects today are the same. Receive everybody, saved or not, and God's Love will separate them.
Anti-Christ Spirits rejoiced, Repentance became as dirty of a Word as Sin, and gospel messages morphed into a self serving chorus' of "Your best life NOW", Your Purpose in this life, better marriage, better finance, and of course, happiness.
You see, sound doctrine is important, and when we deviate from it, it always bears bad fruit; when we adhere to it, it always bears good fruit by faith.
Satan invaded the Garden, and the Gatekeepers opened their doors wide, for the sake of success, and power through NUMBERS. Lots of people came, because Church was no longer a temple, but a Party. Everyone likes a Party, you know.
There have always been Reprobate Christian denominations and local churches, but at least they kept it respectful; they would dress up, suits and Sunday best, to appear Religious. This new wave has cast even that off, to come as you are, and the cooler the better.
| 2009/11/21 9:31|
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hi, i do not understand brothertoms post... 45yrs of watching the power of God move on the hearts of people so that their lives were changed but not hardened by the religious spirit that surely rules in the hearts of those that continue to eat of that tree of the knowlege of good and evil. God is love and he who abides inGod abides in love ...he who knoweth not love knoweth not God...thousands of people have been truly saved over these years and are walking in the spirit because they were born of the spirit of a living God who loved them enough to send His son to die for such a worm as i.jimp
| 2009/11/21 10:39||Profile|
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Quote:Paul wasn't saying that they should stop speaking in tongues because they sound insane to unbelievers, he was saying, don't be speaking in tongues unless you know that the Spirit is moving on you so that there can be an interpretation and reveal the secrets of his heart and he would cry out to God saying that of a truth God is in you. The manifestation of this gift is for the unbeliever, so it's a holy and wholesome thing for this to manifest in our midst that all may be convinced that God truly is among us.
This would bring conviction of sin to the unbeliever, while a fellowship of people speaking in tongues would make unbelievers think of Christians as insane.
I remember on many occasions that when we'd all be praising and worshiping God together, we'd all speak in tongues for our own edification, but when someone came in that wasn't apart of the group, we'd all stop and let the Holy Spirit minister and He would! Someone over in the Amen corner would give a message in tongues and someone would interpret. Paul was pulling them back a bit so that they could be more sensitive to those that did not understand the goings on in Church. I am not talking about those that have an "ism" against this particular gift, but those that are ignorant and have not met our risen Saviour.
In another place Paul said that Prophesying was for the edification of the Church, (this is not just your regular preacher, this is someone who is speaking out what God is saying to them at that moment). Whereas the speaking an unknown tongues is for unbelievers AS A SIGN. For some unbelievers it's necessary that God manifest this gift in a Christian so that he upon hearing the contents of his heart being revealed, gives God all the praise and glory that God is God in us.
| 2009/11/21 14:40|
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Quote:God would disagree with you.
...we run around with however many % of goats along with however many % of sheep, and nothing substantial ever gets done in terms of Kingdom service.
Please read Matthew 13:24-30, especially verse 29&30
| 2009/11/21 14:50|