| Re: |
Quote:Logic, that is not an answer. We can quote those things now because we have knowledge of the New Testament, but put yourself back there in that day under the law. We are not under that law, we have no idea what it felt like to live under it. All we know is grace and truth, that if we sin today we have an advocate, but under the Old Testament the advocate was the law.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin you desired not, neither had pleasure in them; which are offered by the law; (Psalm 40:6)
Hebrews 10:28 He that [b]despised[/b] Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Listen to what Nathan said:
2 Samuel 12:9 Wherefore hast thou [b]despised[/b] the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
Leviticus 24:17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
You know sometimes the best answer is simply, "I don't know".
| 2009/11/23 18:23|
| Re: Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did?|
Hello again brother Logic,
I note you do not quote Heb 10:4, which makes a clear difference between the Old and the New Covenants, as does the comparison between a day of Atonement under the Law, and the last day of Atonement on which Christ died, (which made possible the remission of sins, and the truth in 1 John 1:7).
I do realise that because you deny original sin, the prophecies that Satan would be destroyed, which were fulfilled in Christ's victory over him on the cross, are of no interest to you. As a result, you cannot begin to believe - let alone enjoy - the kind of victory over sin which Christ won for us.
Our 'obedience' without the cleansing of our souls from sin, is worthless works, unlike the keeping of the Law, which God accepted before Christ's death, as the [i]only[/i] legitimate procedure by which He would overlook sin, it being covered by the blood of animals. The only way He could [i]forgive[/i] sin, was by looking ahead (in terms of 'time') to Calvary, which He had been doing since 'before' the foundation of the world.
| 2009/11/23 20:51|
| Re: |
Quote:Why would you think that?
Hello again brother Logic,
I do realize that because you deny original sin, the prophecies that Satan would be destroyed, which were fulfilled in Christ's victory over him on the cross, are of no interest to you.
We sell ourselves into slavery of sin and bound to those sins which the devil has control over us (Rom 6:16-22).
Jesus made a way for us to be free from that bondage. Jesus destroyed the works of the devil (1 John 3:8), which means that they who choose to obey the Gospel (2 Thes 1:8, 1 Peter 4:17) are no longer in the devil's ranks to do his works.
As a result, you cannot begin to believe - let alone enjoy - the kind of victory over sin which Christ won for us.
Since I know that I was able to not sin from the beginning, I am even more culpable because of that.
(Compared to some who think that they could not have avoided from sinning out of necessity because of their sin nature and can not be culpable then at all)
Now that I am free from the bondage from sin that I sold myself into (because of repentance), and now because of the victory over sin which Christ won for us, I am free to serve Christ in the newness of spirit (Rom 6:4, 67:6)
Quote:Repentance is the cleansing of our lives. When we turn from sin towards God,our lives are then clean from sin.
Our 'obedience' without the cleansing of our souls from sin is worthless works,
Our forgiveness of sin is the cleansing of our consciences/souls (1 Tim 1:5,19,3:9; Heb 9:9,10:22, 1 Peter 3:21); Our faith is that we are forgiven of our sin which we could have avoided is forgiven, which gives us a good, clean conscience before God; our soul is clean.
Quote:We are not talking about how God can forgive sin, but that man is able to stop sinning as you said
The only way He could [i]forgive[/i] sin, was by looking ahead (in terms of 'time') to Calvary, which He had been doing since 'before' the foundation of the world.
Quote:All mankind are able to stop sinning, [b]but[/b] unless they are forgiven of their past, what is the benefit of repentance from sin since repentance with out forgiveness is vain?
God doesn't expect fallen man [b]to be [u]able[/u] to stop sinning[/b].
You must prove that mankind was never [b]able[/b] to stop sinning.
Furthermore, you must prove the culpability of sin if sin is impossible to avoid.
| 2009/11/24 11:13||Profile|
| Re: |
Hi Travis, Quote: What if what we find in the Word makes us a little uncomfortable? Please do share the passages you have in mind.
I did not have particular passages in mind. I guess I was just thinking about what our reaction is to the word of God when we find ourselves pulled a little outside of our comfort zone by what God shows us.
John 6:48-67. Jesus said some things that were not understood totally by both the religious Jews and by a good number of His disciples. They called these things "hard" sayings and many disciples turned away from following Him as a result. I find it interesting that He never apologized for offending them and never said, "Hey wait, you misunderstood." Instead He turns to the remainder, His core followers, and says, "What about you? What is your reaction to these things going to be? Are you going to be offended as well?"
Just something to consider.
| 2009/11/25 21:55||Profile|
| Re: |
All mankind are able to stop sinning, but unless they are forgiven of their past, what is the benefit of repentance from sin since repentance with out forgiveness is vain? You must prove that mankind was never able to stop sinning. Furthermore, you must prove the culpability of sin if sin is impossible to avoid.
Good evening Logic:
I have read many posts in which you were discussing this topic and have been thinking about the discussion a little bit.
1 John 2:1 says, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
Truly it is not God's will that we sin. I think we all agree on that. The "these things write I unto you" follows a discussion of the definite sinful condition of all men before they were born again and the promise of God to forgive and cleanse from all unrighteousness. Yes, it is God's will that we sin not. I don't think anyone will disagree with you on that.
I don't think anyone would argue with the fact that, through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, we are given power and victory over sin.
It seems to me, as it probably does to most others, that you are saying that once we are born again, we can somehow reach a state of sinlessness. It seems that you are saying that this is achievable through great effort and exertion on our own part and that a Christian is able to reach a place in their walk with God where they never again commit any sin.
When I use the term fish, it can be either a noun or a verb, and can have variety of meaning as either. Noun, verb, and definition are contextual. Sin is a similar word. There are times when the term sin is used to refer to us missing the mark in one way or another. Other times it refers to the state of a lost man (dead in trespasses and sin).
Every one of us has been through some stuff. We have all grown by process. I one time battled with a sense of insecurity, and made a statement that I had never remembered a time when I really accepted myself and liked myself. A very Godly woman made this statement to me. "Until you recognize that thing as sin, confess it as such, and repent, you will not gain victory over it." What sin had I committed? I was speaking out of my mouth something contrary to the Word of God. God tells me in His word who I am. I was in direct contradiction to the word. It was not of faith. It was sin.
You see, most people would not perceive that thing as sin. They would say, " Brother, you just need healing from that thing." But that was not true. Until I received revelation, I was sinning. I was aware that my thoughts about who I was were not right, but God had to reveal to me that it was sin. I was a man of God, filled with the Holy Spirit, walking in a measure of the power and anointing of the same Holy Spirit. I had cast out demons and prayed for sick that were healed. I was being used as a teacher in the body. But, there were still areas in my life that were sin.
God is going to do that sort of thing in your life from now until you go home or Jesus returns. That is why we must rely on the grace of God. In Galatians Paul says, "As you have therefore received Christ, so walk ye in Him" How did you receive Christ? By grace, through faith. How are you going to continue your walk? By grace, through faith.
That is the point that I think most people are trying to make. No one is trying to say that Christians are hopelessly trapped in lives of sin and don't want to have a way out. They are trying to say that we will never reach a state of perfection where God no longer reveals areas in our life that are sin and deals with them. They are also saying what 1 John 2:1 says. If we miss the mark we have an advocate who Himself is the propitiation for that sin. No one is looking for excuses to miss it. We just recognize that we will occasionally either miss it, or have it revealed to us that we are missing it.
I once "proved" to a class of students that 1=2 through a clever algebraic proof. There was only one problem with the proof. It contained a one faulty operation masked by the use of variables in place of numerals. There have been denominations that taught a state of total sanctification of a christian that was evidenced by a state of sinless perfection. I know people who have been taught this. They used much the same scriptures and arguments that you use. I have seen the result of this teaching vary from self-righteous pride to spiritual impotency. The first came from those who though they had arrived. The second from those who believed the doctrine, but despaired of ever attaining.
I am not saying you fit one of these categories. I am just telling you what I have seen and experienced.
Have you ever spent some time studying and listening to anyone who really emphasizes and focuses their ministry on the grace of God? It seems to me that you are seeing only one side of a two sided coin.
Anyway, just some of my observations and some things to think about.
God bless you brother.
| 2009/11/25 22:56||Profile|
| Re: Christ emptied Himself ... He did?|
I've been thinking about what I understood 'empty' to mean, and decided to look up the Greek definition in Strong's. Without doubt, I have misunderstood what Paul was saying in Phil 2, because it's much more conceptual - as opposed to sculptural - than I had apprehended.
Dear brother Logic,
I think I've made my understanding of scripture clear many times in previous threads, and again I say, be careful not to set your intellect above God's in your own understanding.
Consider the possibility that in His [i][b]infinite[/i][/b] wisdom, He really did allow 'the sin' to become a part of every descendent of Adam, so that in the fulness of time, in Christ our eternal Representative / Substitute, He could slay it once and for all; that all who believe may be free from it (once and for all), as they receive His death personally, and are raised to walk in newness of life. Truly, this is Matt 11:28 in action, as well as 1 John 1:7.
| 2009/11/26 6:20|
| Re: |
It's time now for some breathing exercises.
Ah yes, take a few deep breath [hold] before posting the next post in this thread. [exhale]
It's so nice to feel our spirit calming down to sanity and be able to hear the whispers of two flies chatting on the ceiling above. Or be able to hear what the cat is thinking, "Pat me or die". Now that would be something wouldn't it?
Now, gently rest your fingers on your keyboard and with careful attention remember that the person that you are posting to is not a "handle", but a live loving believer such as yourself, whom, if you met face to face would probably get along nicely. ;-)
| 2009/11/26 9:46|
| Re: |
Now, gently rest your fingers on your keyboard and with careful attention remember that the person that you are posting to is not a "handle", but a live loving believer such as yourself, whom, if you met face to face would probably get along nicely.
How true brother, how true.
| 2009/11/26 9:53||Profile|