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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did?

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 Re: Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did?

Hi Logic and welcome

Quote:
IF remained sinless precisely because he was/is God, then that would be an unjust standard for us to be held to, because we are not god to not sin.

You are forced to reason this way, to make sense of the scriptures you actually quote. But you do not admit [u]all[/u] scripture to your thinking, nor do you seem to understand that [b]God doesn't expect fallen man to be able to stop sinning[/b].
Quote:
Since we are not god to not sin, how are we supposed to imitate Him?

That's why we have to die in Christ, (now), so that once we are raised to new life in Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit, we can walk in the same life as Christ did - the same power that was in Christ [u]before[/u] He died (as well as after He rose).

Do you 'see' that yet?

 2009/11/22 18:19
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Alive-to-God wrote:
Quote:
IF remained sinless precisely because he was/is God, then that would be an unjust standard for us to be held to, because we are not god to not sin.

You are forced to reason this way, to make sense of the scriptures you actually quote. But you do not admit [u]all[/u] scripture to your thinking, nor do you seem to understand that [b]God doesn't expect fallen man to be able to stop sinning[/b].

God does expect all mankind to be able to stop sinning, because He commands all men every where to repent (Act 17:30).
If God didn't expect it men to be able to stop sinning, He wouldn't command it.

Furthermore, to justly command anything, there must be an ability to perform the command.

We call those who command impossibilities "unreasonable & unjust task masters" as Pharaoh was when He commanded the Children of Israel to make more bricks with out straw (Exodus 5).

Quote:
Since we are not god to not sin, how are we supposed to imitate Him?

That's why we have to die in Christ, (now), so that once we are raised to new life in Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit, we can walk in the same life as Christ did - the same power that was in Christ [u]before[/u] He died (as well as after He rose).
All mankind are able to do this, therefore, God expects fallen man to be able to stop sinning.

 2009/11/22 18:47Profile









 Re: Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did?

Hi Logic,
I explained that the cross and our part in it, makes all the difference to being able to not sin.

Quote:
God does expect all mankind to be able to stop sinning, because He commands all men every where to repent (Act 17:30).

I agree. But this (Acts) was written after the cross, when the terms of salvation had changed drastically, from those terms before the cross.

What difference does repentance make, under the New Covenant, which was impossible under the Old Covenant? (Or, what does the cross have to do, with the power not to sin?)

 2009/11/22 19:16
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1971
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I realise I may not 'win' this argument, but I am far more comfortable attributing the full spectrum of qualities to God who made us also to experience those qualities, than entertaining the thought that to become Man, the Son of God lost some divine qualities in translation, or, had to lose some to be able to execute His mission successfully.



Linn: I don't think "winning" an argument is what it is about anyway. I appreciate your point of view and the discussion. Question to ponder: What if what we find in the Word makes us a little uncomfortable? Anyway, God bless you brother.

Travis


_________________
Travis

 2009/11/22 21:29Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Alive-to-God wrote:
Hi Logic,
I explained that the cross and our part in it, makes all the difference to being able to not sin.

How did Job not sin?
There was no cross then.
The Cross does not help us to not sin, but is for when we do.

If we could not sin, we would not be guilty for sinning.

Our obligation which we have is to never sin.
Not sinning is our responcibility.
The fact that we were always able to not sin (but still chose to anyway) makes us all the more guilty before God.

Quote:
Quote:
God does expect all mankind to be able to stop sinning, because He commands all men every where to repent (Act 17:30).

I agree. But this (Acts) was written after the cross, when the terms of salvation had changed drastically, from those terms before the cross.

God called Israel to not sin before the Cross.
HE sent prophets to them so that they would repent, because the were able.
The fact that they didn't when they could, makes them guilty.
If they couldn't not sin/repent, they wouldn't be guilty.
No one is guilty for that which they were not able.

Quote:
What difference does repentance make, under the New Covenant, which was impossible under the Old Covenant?

There is no diference.
Not sinning was always posible, even in the old testement.

Quote:
(Or, what does the cross have to do, with the power not to sin?)

The only way that the cross gives us so called "power" not to sin is that we know our continued obedience (responcility) is worth something because we know that we are forgiven and our past sins do not cancile our obedience out.

If we were not forgiven, our not sinnning would be worth nothing to us nor to God because we would still be hell bound.

 2009/11/22 21:32Profile









 Re: Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did?



Hi Travis,

Quote:
What if what we find in the Word makes us a little uncomfortable?

Please do share the passages you have in mind.

:-)

 2009/11/23 2:53









 Re: Christ 'emptied Himself'..... He did?


Hi Logic,

Quote:
Not sinning was always posible, even in the old testement.

But, there was a great difference in the way God dealt with sin in the Old Testament, and the people who are justified by faith in the Old Testament were still looking ahead to the cross. Heb 11:39, 40.

Why?
Quote:
The only way that the cross gives us so called "power" not to sin is that we know our continued obedience (responcility) is worth something because we know that we are forgiven and our past sins do not cancile our obedience out.

This is not the message of the book of Hebrews (which presupposes a fair grasp of the Mosaic Law).

 2009/11/23 2:58









 Re:

Logic said:

Quote:
How did Job not sin? There was no cross then.

I can understand where Alive is come from with this, I think.

When you look at how Davids sin with Bathsheba and how Uriah was murdered, one cannot help but wonder that grace was certainly bestowed upon this man and the woman. According to the law they were both to be stoned. But Nathan the prophet told David that the LORD had put away his sin, where was the sacrifice?

Yes Davids house was judged, but he and Bathsheba were spared.

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Proverbs 6:32 But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.

 2009/11/23 9:06
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Alive-to-God wrote:
Quote:
Not sinning was always possible, even in the old statement.

But, there was a great difference in the way God dealt with sin in the Old Testament, and the people who are justified by faith in the Old Testament were still looking ahead to the cross. Heb 11:39, 40.

There is no difference in the way God dealt with sin in the Old Testament from the way HE did in the New.
Instead of fire & brimstone as Sodom & Gomorrah, God uses hurricanes, tsunamis... Various natural disasters.

However, The way God deals with Sin with His own people in the Old compared to the New Testament is that [color=660000]at many times and in various manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son[/color] (Heb 1:1-2)

Quote:
Why?

Heb 11:39-40 does not imply faith in any atonement, but just belief in God with obedience as proof of belief.

All men are only condemned or justified by God in the New Testament for their rejection or accepting of Christ.
In the Old Testament They were only condemned or justified by God for their unbelief and disobedience or belief and obedience to HIM. (See Romans 1:18-20, 2:14, 15)
[b]Galatians 3:6[/b] [color=660000]Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.[/color]

And also for the non-Jews
[b]Jonah 3:5[/b] [color=660000]So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.[/color]
Their fast was the proof of obedience. They neither looked ahead to the cross when they repented.

Before the flood they all believed in God for HE was evident to all since Adam would have been alive with them, or Adam would have been known for his fame of being the first man ever created.

Quote:
Quote:
The only way that the cross gives us so called "power" not to sin is that we know our continued obedience (responsibility) is worth something because we know that we are forgiven and our past sins do not cancel our obedience out.

This is not the message of the book of Hebrews (which presupposes a fair grasp of the Mosaic Law).

We are talking about the ability to not sin as you claim, "[i]God doesn't expect fallen man to be able to stop sinning.[/i]"

The Letter of Hebrews nor does the Mosaic Law does not tell us anything accordingly, nor does the Mosaic Law.

 2009/11/23 10:30Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
DeepThinker wrote:
Quote:
Logic said:
How did Job not sin? There was no cross then.

I can understand where Alive is come from with this, I think.

When you look at how Davids sin with Bathsheba and how Uriah was murdered, one cannot help but wonder that grace was certainly bestowed upon this man and the woman. According to the law they were both to be stoned. But Nathan the prophet told David that the LORD had put away his sin, [b]where was the sacrifice?[/b]

[b]Heb 10:8[/b] [color=660000]Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin you desired not, neither had pleasure in them; which are offered by the law;[/color] (Psalm 40:6)

[b]Psalm 51:17[/b] [color=660000]The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.[/color] Psalm 34:18, Isa 57:15, 66:2

 2009/11/23 10:37Profile





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