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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : How do Modern Day Jewish-Christians View Jesus?

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IWantAnguish
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Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA

 How do Modern Day Jewish-Christians View Jesus?

Do modern day Jewish-Christians view Jesus as the God of the Old Testament?

For example, the burning bush that interacted with Moses... was that a revelation of God the Son (Jesus)? or God the Father ?

When Isaiah had a vision of the throne of God in chapter 6, was that a vision of Jesus? or the Father? or both?

Or are the Son and the Father interchangeable?

John 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

In my opinion, this passage states that nobody has ever seen the Father... except Jesus Christ. This would have to mean that 'no man' would include all men of history, including those of the Old Testament. Thus leading me to believe that the revealed God of the Old Testament was actually Jesus Christ himself...

Am I wrong in assuming these things?


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Sam Yoon

 2009/11/11 22:41Profile
KingJimmy
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 Re: How do Modern Day Jewish-Christians View Jesus?

Most Messianic-Jews that I know of hold to typical views in regard to these things. That is, things such as the burning bush, or the "fourth man" in the furnace with the three Hebrews were pre-incarnate manifestations of Christ i.e. Theophanies. Thus, all such manifestations would be a manifestation of the second person of the Trinity.


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Jimmy H

 2009/11/11 22:46Profile
IWantAnguish
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Joined: 2006/6/15
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VCU @ Richmond, VA

 Re:

How about when Moses was on the mountain of Sinai, and he asked God to show him His glory?

Or in 1 King 19...when Elijah was in the cleft of the mountain, and God made the wind blow, and the earth quake, and the fire burn..

Would that also be Christ? or Father? Or both combined?

I'm sorry if these questions are seemingly repetitive, but I would also like to know how reformed Christians view these Old Testament interactions of God and men in light of the passage of John 6:46.


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Sam Yoon

 2009/11/11 22:51Profile
KingJimmy
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 Re:

I believe, like most Christians that I know, no matter what persuasion, that such Theophanies were always the second person of the Trinity. I think passages like John 6:46 don't allow us to conclude anything but such.


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Jimmy H

 2009/11/11 22:58Profile
IWantAnguish
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VCU @ Richmond, VA

 Re:

Hmm... So if all manifestations were the 2nd person of the Trinity... And all the Jews had revealed to them were of the 2nd person of the Trinity, were all sacrifices and prayers made to this 2nd person of the Trinity as well?

Even if they thought they were offering them to the Father?

I.E... all the psalms of David were offered up to Jesus Christ, the revealed God of the Old Testament.


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Sam Yoon

 2009/11/11 23:00Profile
KingJimmy
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Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

And all the Jews had revealed to them were of the 2nd person of the Trinity, were all sacrifices and prayers made to this 2nd person of the Trinity as well?



Though there is some indication of the Trinity in the Old Testament, the teaching of the Trinity is almost exclusively a New Testament teaching. So far as I can tell, there is no indication that the Old Testament worshiper understood he was worshiping a triune God. Indeed, I fail to see how they could've understood such until the coming of Christ, when this revelation seems to have been made almost exclusively, and clearly so.

As it is, even while it is common for us as individuals who believe in the Trinity to make such distinctions, most of the time when I pray, talk about God, or do some other "religious activity," I seldom make such a distinguishment in my mind about which person of the godhead I am praying to. "God" allows you to refer to all three members at once.


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Jimmy H

 2009/11/11 23:09Profile
IWantAnguish
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Joined: 2006/6/15
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 Re:

Thanks for the responses.


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Sam Yoon

 2009/11/11 23:15Profile









 Re: How do Modern Day Jewish-Christians View Jesus?




Hi IWantAnguish and KingJimmy,

First, here is a link to an online Sacred Names Bible (KJV), which shows which name appears in the Hebrew (Old Testament), for God.

A famous landmark in scripture is Deu 6:4: Hear, O Israel: YHVH our ELOHIYM is one YHVH:

Another is Gen 1, where the same name - ELOHIYM - is used 32 times - and it's plural:

26 And ELOHIYM said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So ELOHIYM created man in his own image, in the image of ELOHIYM created he him; male and female created he them.


According to Newberry it occurs around 2,500 times, and is used with both singular and plural verbs, nouns and pronouns.


I don't think there is any way that a Hebrew could have grown up not knowing the name 'Elohiym', and not understanding that this plural name referred to 'one God'.


The Trinty as a doctrine after the New Testament era was brought in to combat heresy. But a Jew would not have been in doubt that God is both singular and plural according to His own definition of Himself. I believe Elohiym is not limited to three.


Quote:
Do modern day Jewish-Christians view Jesus as the God of the Old Testament?

[url=http://www.afii.org/]http://www.afii.org/[/url] is a very useful website for gaining an insight to what modern day Jews understand from the Old Testament, with regard to Jesus.

(Christianity was preached from the Old Testament, so the promise of the Messiah there, had ALL to come together on one Man. This webpage is about that: [url=http://www.afii.org/texts/hw2p2rb.htm]Credentials of Messiah[/url])

Necessarily therefore, Jesus was the manifestation of the God of the Old Testament, and He unreservedly makes that claim for Himself many times over while establishing new parameters for man's relationship with God. But it was this - that Messiah [i]was God[/i], that Jews were unprepred for. They knew Messiah would be one of them and that was terribly important for establishing that He'was indeed Messiah. But, manifestly, Jews had a great deal of difficulty with the mysterious connections hidden in scripture, such that it's not until after Jesus' resurrection, that He begins to open a deeper understanding of it to His own disciples (to whom it was given to understand).

Jews imagined that Messiah being man, would give them some part in their own salvation. Rom 10:2, 3. When God took one side of Christ's descent into His own hands, no-one could really grasp what was going on - especially His changing His natural descent to be reckoned through a woman, rather than a man. Nevertheless, it is tremendously important to any Jew, that their Messiah did come, if they believe in Him. (We know that many did not.)


Your reference to John 6:46 does, I believe, leaves plenty of room for a spiritual interpretation, if the emphasis is put on the word 'seen'. Because - to take a purely human example - your father is seen in you, and my father is seen in me. Even if we didn't know who our fathers are, our existence proves we have a father. It's the same with Jesus, refering to God as His Father, in its intimate meaning (as compared with its religious, ritual significance). We 'see' the Father, in Christ, and Christ as the Firstborn (from the dead) sent by His Father as emissary, represents His Father (back home in glory), to those He meets in His journey to a distant country.


It is modern [i]gentile[/i] Christians, who have separated the Old and New Testaments unnecessarily, treating the Old Testament of little or no significance, mainly because of their own ignorance (imho). To a Jew though, that could not happen, except where his family have chosen to deny God's claims, or resist them.

 2009/11/12 16:57





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